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Topic: New iPod Nano, how is audio quality? (Read 37603 times) previous topic - next topic
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New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #25 –
Quote from: Maurits on
As for Rockbox, I'm not sure. It might very well be that Rockbox is NeroAAC gapless compatible (and if it's not it's probably easily made compatible), it's just that I believe there are still some issues with playing AAC on Rockbox, whether gapless or not.


Rockbox finally got a developer intersted in AAC, so a number of fixes have been added this month.  Its actually approaching stable on most platforms, but the CPU requirements are still quite steep even with optimizations.  AAC or at least FAAD seems pretty CPU intensive compared to other formats/decoders.

Quote
Anyway, how about quality? I've read some tecnical comparison full of graphs and it seems that Shuffle, the cheapper one, has the better basses of all iPod line.


Ipods have bass issues low impedance headphones.  Its not a big issue if you user higher impedances(32 ohms and greater).

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #26 –
I have a question regarding the new iPod nano.
I'm currently looking for a great quality 2GB player... and i like the iRiver U10 (or Clix) and as i know the iRiver audio quality i preety great.
How is the quality of the new iPod compared to that of the iRiver?

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #27 –
Btw, are there any news about Rockbox for 2G Nano? Is there any chance it will it be ported?

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #28 –
Here are some RMAA results some might be interested in.

iPod Nano 8GB 2nd Gen fw 1.0.2

I think they're quite surprising. I tried testing the device many many times, with wav and mp3 and always get the same results. No EQ was enabled, clicking was disabled and so was soundcheck. I hope this is improved with a firmware update. I'd be interested in seeing anyone else's results too.
daefeatures.co.uk

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #29 –
Quote from: evereux on
Here are some RMAA results some might be interested in.

iPod Nano 8GB 2nd Gen fw 1.0.2

I think they're quite surprising. I tried testing the device many many times, with wav and mp3 and always get the same results. No EQ was enabled, clicking was disabled and so was soundcheck. I hope this is improved with a firmware update. I'd be interested in seeing anyone else's results too.



Can you explane me what this graphs means? Is it good o bad? 

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #30 –
Quote from: Dias on
Quote from: evereux on

Here are some RMAA results some might be interested in.

iPod Nano 8GB 2nd Gen fw 1.0.2

I think they're quite surprising. I tried testing the device many many times, with wav and mp3 and always get the same results. No EQ was enabled, clicking was disabled and so was soundcheck. I hope this is improved with a firmware update. I'd be interested in seeing anyone else's results too.



Can you explane me what this graphs means? Is it good o bad? 

RMAA is a means to measure the performance of a device using test tones.

The white line is the Transit (my USB M-Audio soundcard) looped back on itself, this measures quite well. The green line is the output from the iPod. In this test the iPod does not measure well, especially in frequency response (the flatter the better) and THD (total harmonic distortion).

I compared the playback of a track from Jeff Lynes War Of The Worlds (the only track I could quickly find we both had) and the Trasnit was better IMO. No ABX tests but this time I really but I really don't think they're neccessary. If I get the chance tommorrow I'll record the output and host a small sample.
daefeatures.co.uk

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #31 –
Quote from: evereux on
Here are some RMAA results some might be interested in.

iPod Nano 8GB 2nd Gen fw 1.0.2

I think they're quite surprising. I tried testing the device many many times, with wav and mp3 and always get the same results. No EQ was enabled, clicking was disabled and so was soundcheck. I hope this is improved with a firmware update. I'd be interested in seeing anyone else's results too.

Wow, a > 6dB range in the freq response?! And a THD of 7%!
That seems almost unreal, especially if you compare it to the near flat response of the M-Audio device and THD of 0.0012. Can anyone else reproduce this? Maybe evereux has a defective iPod?

This might influence my decision of buying one

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #32 –
Quote from: evereux on
Quote from: Dias on

Quote from: evereux on

Here are some RMAA results some might be interested in.

iPod Nano 8GB 2nd Gen fw 1.0.2

I think they're quite surprising. I tried testing the device many many times, with wav and mp3 and always get the same results. No EQ was enabled, clicking was disabled and so was soundcheck. I hope this is improved with a firmware update. I'd be interested in seeing anyone else's results too.



Can you explane me what this graphs means? Is it good o bad? 

RMAA is a means to measure the performance of a device using test tones.

The white line is the Transit (my USB M-Audio soundcard) looped back on itself, this measures quite well. The green line is the output from the iPod. In this test the iPod does not measure well, especially in frequency response (the flatter the better) and THD (total harmonic distortion).

I compared the playback of a track from Jeff Lynes War Of The Worlds (the only track I could quickly find we both had) and the Trasnit was better IMO. No ABX tests but this time I really but I really don't think they're neccessary. If I get the chance tommorrow I'll record the output and host a small sample.



Thanks for reply.

Have you tried to update a firmware? The last one is 1.1, maybe it's going to fix some issues.

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #33 –
It's not my iPod but I'll ask the owner to try and update the firmware over the weekend and I'll re-run the test.
daefeatures.co.uk

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #34 –
Here's another RMAA test for the 2G Nano I found at the forums at ArsTechnica
(Also the loopback of the card used to test)

This seems to show a much better frequency response of within 0.5dB and a THD of 0.096. Also Apple rates their nanos at 20Hz - 20kHz and I don't think they'd dare if the response was as reported earlier in this thread.
 

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #35 –
Quote from: evereux on
Here are some RMAA results some might be interested in.

iPod Nano 8GB 2nd Gen fw 1.0.2

I think they're quite surprising. I tried testing the device many many times, with wav and mp3 and always get the same results. No EQ was enabled, clicking was disabled and so was soundcheck. I hope this is improved with a firmware update. I'd be interested in seeing anyone else's results too.


You're doing something wrong.  The results are impossible, not just because they make no sense, but also because you don't see any of the ripple at 20k that you should see in an oversampling DAC.

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #36 –
Indeed, it looks like you are resampling. Is the nano running at the same sampling frequency as the m-audio?

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #37 –
Quote from: Mike Giacomelli on
Quote from: evereux on

Here are some RMAA results some might be interested in.

iPod Nano 8GB 2nd Gen fw 1.0.2

I think they're quite surprising. I tried testing the device many many times, with wav and mp3 and always get the same results. No EQ was enabled, clicking was disabled and so was soundcheck. I hope this is improved with a firmware update. I'd be interested in seeing anyone else's results too.


You're doing something wrong.  The results are impossible, not just because they make no sense, but also because you don't see any of the ripple at 20k that you should see in an oversampling DAC.

I beleive something is very wrong too, what, I don't know. Put it this way, how would I produce a result like this if I was trying to? My result was reproduceable many times over a few different days. I've since measured an iPod Mini and a 2nd Gen 20GB iPod, these measurements have come out fine.


Quote from: ultranalog on
Indeed, it looks like you are resampling. Is the nano running at the same sampling frequency as the m-audio?

I wouldn't know how to affect the sampling frequency of the Nano. I never touch the settings of the MAudio either. Since this is an analogue measurement would non-matching sampling frequncies produce what I have above? I'd be surprised if that's the case.

I'll see what I can do to investigate this further.
daefeatures.co.uk

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #38 –
Wow, these results are very very interesting.

I just asked myself the same (audio-quality) question b/c I wanted to buy an ipod nano 8GB for Christmas.

Before I investigated that topic a bit I expected that mp3 players would not color the sound noticably.
But then I found this frequency response plot of the audio chip (I guess the DAC) of an Ipod 3G, which shocked me a bit:
http://www.owolff.com/documents/WebSite/PD...wmb-757526s.pdf
Edit: This is wrong, it's the frequency response of the piezo buzzer.
I found it through this site: http://ipodlinux.org/Generations#Third_Generation

Another source that might fortify your findings is this here (although I have no clue how reliable that is):
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-11297_7-6510133-4.html

If this is true, I certainly won't spend 230€ on an Ipod this year.
Unfortunately my current mp3 player, an SEG MP56-1024 DRM, doesn't sound very satisfying (which is the reason for my interest).

Edit: OTOH, this document states exactly the opposite: http://www.modeemi.fi/~vesas/iPod_Audio.pdf
Maybe the difference is whether the values are taken under load  (with the impedance of a headphone)?

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #39 –
Quote from: pro_optimizer on
If this is true, I certainly won't spend 230€ on an Ipod this year.

Does it matter if it's true? I suppose you're not trying to buy an old iPod model like the 3G? The 3G probably had poor quality but is a pretty old model which you would only find second hand on Ebay. It has been succeeded by the 4G, 5G and now 5.5G model.

If you want info on the audio quality of 'the iPod', look for reviews on the 5.5G or the Nano 2G, those are the ones in the shops now, not the 3G.
Every night with my star friends / We eat caviar and drink champagne
Sniffing in the VIP area / We talk about Frank Sinatra
Do you know Frank Sinatra? / He's dead

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #40 –
Quote from: pro_optimizer on
Wow, these results are very very interesting.

I just asked myself the same (audio-quality) question b/c I wanted to buy an ipod nano 8GB for Christmas.

Before I investigated that topic a bit I expected that mp3 players would not color the sound noticably.
But then I found this frequency response plot of the audio chip (I guess the DAC) of an Ipod 3G, which shocked me a bit:
http://www.owolff.com/documents/WebSite/PD...wmb-757526s.pdf
I found it through this site: http://ipodlinux.org/Generations#Third_Generation


That spec sheet is for the piezo buzzer, not a DAC.  The DAC is listed on the second link you posted...

Quote from: pro_optimizer on
Another source that might fortify your findings is this here (although I have no clue how reliable that is):
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-11297_7-6510133-4.html


Theres almost no information there, and they don't test with a load, so its not relevent unless you use a headphone amp.

Quote from: pro_optimizer on
Edit: OTOH, this document states exactly the opposite: http://www.modeemi.fi/~vesas/iPod_Audio.pdf
Maybe the difference is whether the values are taken under load  (with the impedance of a headphone)?


Yes, the problem with the ipod is only under load from low impedance headphones.  Anyway, RMAA results were posted above.  They're the gold standard.  No need to bother with crappy and misleading stuff.

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #41 –
Quote
That spec sheet is for the piezo buzzer, not a DAC. The DAC is listed on the second link you posted...

Dammit, your're right, Mike!

So, I guess one should trust the RMAA measurements from Ars Technica and not those from evereux. (http://daefeatures.co.uk/tests/iPodNano8GB.htm)

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #42 –
The RMAA results linked don't really tell us much about the sound quality of the Nano, when used with headphones. Almost all MP3 players will work just fine into line inputs, but with headphone loads the results are very different.

I recently measured the Nano 2G into 32 ohm resistive loading at 100 mV. As with most (but not all) players, the bass response dips down slightly because of rising output impedance at low frequencies. 30 Hz is down by approx. 1.5 dB. Stick to relatively high-impedance headphones.... but that might be a problem, since the output levels are appalling - 2.6 mW into 32 ohms. This might be different outside the EU, iPods have been volume-capped here for a while. From circa 200 Hz up to 20 kHz the frequency response is within 0.2 dB. Noise figures were above average. Gapless playback and LAME APS decoding worked fine this time around.

Comparing to other current players, the Nano seems to be one of the best, definitely a bit better than the current full-size iPod. Still doesn't beat the old iRiver H100 series machines however.

Hope this helps...

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #43 –
Quote from: prism_emf on
The RMAA results linked don't really tell us much about the sound quality of the Nano, when used with headphones.

If a device measures badly it will perform badly.


I have access to another Nano which I can test in the next couple of days. I'm not 100% sure it's a 2nd gen but I'll post results regardless. Watch this space ...
daefeatures.co.uk

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #44 –
I will also post results of my green Nano. How do I use RMAA? I am asking because I tried to do such a test with my iRiver iMP-550 and kept getting the message, that the calibration signal could not be found or something like that.

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #45 –
Quote from: evereux on
If a device measures badly it will perform badly.


Definitely. But a device can measure fine when the measurements are done into a line input and still perform horribly when used with headphones. Power amplifiers are measured at 4 and 8 ohms, portable players should also be loaded when doing measurements.

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #46 –
Quote from: SNap on
I have a question regarding the new iPod nano.
I'm currently looking for a great quality 2GB player... and i like the iRiver U10 (or Clix) and as i know the iRiver audio quality i preety great.
How is the quality of the new iPod compared to that of the iRiver?


I have an iriver U10 and I was really annoyed about an occasional sound glitch when it was forwarding to the next song. It doesn't happen every time but it is annoying because this sound glitch is louder than the track.

So I bought an iPod  nano 2g.

edit:typos

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #47 –
evereux' RMAA graphs look like there is some clipping.
I don't have nor know ipod, but heard there is some logic in there that adapts volume levels, this could cause both insane freq response and clipping during relatively slow RMAA test run. I assume that RMAA test have been saved as a file and played back on ipod, not using ipod's line-in?
It really really did sound different. Not in a placebo way.

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #48 –
Quote from: Sebastian Mares on
I will also post results of my green Nano. How do I use RMAA? I am asking because I tried to do such a test with my iRiver iMP-550 and kept getting the message, that the calibration signal could not be found or something like that.


Umm, I would make sure that
- you can record from line in at all
- the recording/playback levels are ok (slightly below max), especially with the calibration signal
- the player plays the proper files (i.e. calibration & test signal)
- no equalizers/effects/whatsoever are enabled on the player

Then it should just be a matter of pressing the start test button and then the player's play button with test signal selected ;-)


Btw:
How do you perform measurements under load?
Is it enough to split the player's output signal to the soundcard and to a headphone with an Y-adapter?
If yes, I would upload my ipod nano 2G measurements (load/no load) this evening.

New iPod Nano, how is audio quality?

Reply #49 –
I can record from line-in, yes. I already recorded some audio cassettes and it worked.
The recording and playback levels when I tested my iRiver were set to max, but the RMAA software told me that I should increase the volume - which I couldn't do. The only possibility was to test through my amplifier, but that introduces additional noise.
The player was of course playing the correct files without any equalization.