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Topic: HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources? (Read 30874 times) previous topic - next topic
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HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Not sure if this forum is well geared for this sort of discussion.
This is the only sub-forum I found that comes "close" to the subject matter.
But there's been some very friendly/informative users in the past.
So I figured I'd throw this one out there....

I want one for legitimate reasons, not for some organisation's definition of pirating...
I'm interested for the purpose of capturing HD audio (normally found in BD's & PS3 Games, rarely XB360) via HDMI,
running it through a HRTF filter (for 2ch simulated surround), & then out through my modded Essence ST.

I realise with BD movies I can already do this in windows without the need for a capture card, so long as I have a PAP compliant card, BD reader, & softplayer that can do DH or similar.
And it's irrelevant whether my card is PAP compliant in Linux, so once the BD is ripped I should also be able to do this.

But as my Essence ST is not PAP compliant, it's not possible to handle the HD audio stream via the PAP process in Windows.
Capturing BD output from my PS3 via HDMI (once HDCP is stripped) should remove the PAP burden, then hopefully I can pass the signal to a HRTF filter, and then onto my Essence ST.

Another reason for HDMI capture is HD audio from console games...

Again I want my Essence ST to be the final DAC in the chain, not an AVR.
The only concern I have is desync, but if audio & video are passed to the capture device & video "passed-through", then clocking should remain "fairly" in-sync.
Of course because of the post-processing assoc/w running through a filter and then on to the ST, tweaking of timings will be necessary.

Sorry if this doesn't clearly convey what I'm wanting, write-up is quite rushed, strapped for time right now.
Thank-you for your time/thoughts/advice! All the best.

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #1 –
So you want this for real time gaming? I use the optical output of the PS3 into a JVC SU-DH1 processor. Unfortunately they don't sell them anymore. Is there any reason it needs to be HDMI?

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #2 –
Primarily yes, I own an su-dh1 and it's great...

But I want to capture "HD" audio, run it through a HRTF filter to convert it to simulated surround (e.g. DH).
And then have my Essence ST be the DAC/amp for my headphones, not my console or AVR.

I've come across a few examples of HDMI capture cards that can inadvertently capture HDCP sources.
Just not sure if there's anything that'll allow me to grab all the HD audio, or only the HD Video + 2-ch LPCM.

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #3 –
some fairly interesting insights have already started to pop up in these 2 threads
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1479998#post1479998
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/332189-...163#post2059163
I've just realised the heading i used for them both is somewhat ambiguous

One potential direction will to be head back down the "analogue hole" route...
And be limited to s/pdif capture using a device like the colossus, hd-pvr, or just a sound-card.
But I want to be certain 1st that the former direction isn't feasible, it's not conclusive yet.

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #4 –
andy o/anyone? Thank-you.

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #5 –
*bump* sorry, just in a massive rush

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #6 –
sorry, I got nothing. It seems to me HDCP is doing its intended job though. I know there's a Gefen device that will turn up to 7.1 LPCM from HDMI into analog, but then you'd also need a multichannel capture card. I would not worry too much about what's doing the D/A conversion either. I think you're asking for far more trouble than it's worth especially if you're just doing it for real-time gaming. And who's to say even if you get it working you won't run into latency issues.

Is there any particular problem with the simpler setup of optical into the SU-DH1? Doesn't the Xbox do something like Dolby digital live like the PS3?

BTW, I'm not sure what you mean with "HD audio". Do you mean lossless? Cause I don't think most or any games have lossless audio in the first place. I'm also not sure how PAP fits into this, since it mainly applies to AACS-encrypted content and even then you can still get lossless provided it's not above 48/16 or bitstreamed.

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: andy o on
I know there's a Gefen device that will turn up to 7.1 LPCM from HDMI into analog, but then you'd also need a multichannel capture card.


Is there an analogue capture device that can capture that?

Quote
I think you're asking for far more trouble than it's worth especially if you're just doing it for real-time gaming. And who's to say even if you get it working you won't run into latency issues.


I imagine HDMI capture cards or the analogue capture "&" HDMI capture Colossus.
Will have input and output clocks, much like an AVR & the SU-DH1, so desync should be greatly mitigated.
Even if they don't or having the clocks makes little difference, apps like re-clock should help me out.

Quote
Is there any particular problem with the simpler setup of optical into the SU-DH1? Doesn't the Xbox do something like Dolby digital live like the PS3?


No problem, other than it's limited to DD/DTS 5.1 and I'm not able to use the DAC + Amp in my PC.

Quote
BTW, I'm not sure what you mean with "HD audio". Do you mean lossless? Cause I don't think most or any games have lossless audio in the first place.


My definition of HD audio is anything that's 8-ch LPCM or more, that uses the latest DD/DTS formats, namely; TrueHD, DTS-MA.
I believe some PS3 games utilise this "HD" audio, and on the rare occasion, some Xbox games.
The only other source I'm aware of for such "HD" audio are BD's, are you aware of any other sources?

Quote
I'm also not sure how PAP fits into this, since it mainly applies to AACS-encrypted content and even then you can still get lossless provided it's not above 48/16 or bitstreamed.

The only reason I thought it might be advantageous to have a HDMI capture card for PAP, is because my ST isn't PAP compatible.
But I've since realised i can just rip BD's on my PC and bypass PAP that way, so that I can use my ST to play BD "HD" audio, right?

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #8 –
I don't know any other sources of HD audio as you put it, other than blu-rays, that's why I was asking. But if you're talking about bitstreaming TrueHD or DTS-HD into this hypothetical HDMI device, I think you're in even worse luck.

I mentioned the HDMI->7.1 analog route cause I imagine since a 7.1 analog capture card doesn't violate any industry rules, it would be easier to find, but I don't know any in particular. You'd be doing D->A->D->A conversion though. I wouldn't expect quality to drop audibly unless the hardware was very cheap.

In any case, it seems you'll have to spend some considerable amount of cash, for what you're trying to do.

Actually, since game audio is already lossy-compressed, I do think HDMI uncompressed output is probably better so as to not to do a double compression via Dolby Digital Live, but again, the trouble seems far too much for the (questionable) gain.

If you're willing to spend a few hundred though, you can probably be better off buying an HDMI receiver that offers Dolby Headphone. Unfortunately, of the few that do offer it, I think only Harman Kardon offers it in their cheaper receivers, and I REALLY dislike HK AVRs. Had an awful experience trying to set up an AVR254, but besides all that, these receivers don't pass through HDMI video untouched, they reprocess it (presumably to insert an OSD).

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: andy o on
I don't know any other sources of HD audio as you put it, other than blu-rays, that's why I was asking. But if you're talking about bitstreaming TrueHD or DTS-HD into this hypothetical HDMI device, I think you're in even worse luck.


No as explained for BD it prolly won't be needed, because I can just decrypt and then play using my PC's local sound-card right?
Not so sure in Windows, I know in Linux it's a process of decrypt + transcode, then the end product is exactly the same quality-wise.
Alas I'm sure there's quite a few PS3 games that employ HD audio formats and even the odd Xbox, do you disagree on that point?

Quote
I mentioned the HDMI->7.1 analog route cause I imagine since a 7.1 analog capture card doesn't violate any industry rules, it would be easier to find, but I don't know any in particular. You'd be doing D->A->D->A conversion though. I wouldn't expect quality to drop audibly unless the hardware was very cheap.
In any case, it seems you'll have to spend some considerable amount of cash, for what you're trying to do.


Yeah I think that route's getting too crazy, especially when it's only for a vain attempt to capture "HD audio" from the odd PS3/Xbox game.
Even if a suitable device exists, surely there'd have to substantial degradation from the original source before reaching my Essence?
I mean 1st DAC would be pretty crappy, no matter how good the ADC is capturing that output, "the horse has already bolted", right?

Quote
Actually, since game audio is already lossy-compressed, I do think HDMI uncompressed output is probably better so as to not to do a double compression via Dolby Digital Live, but again, the trouble seems far too much for the (questionable) gain.


Huh?

Quote
If you're willing to spend a few hundred though, you can probably be better off buying an HDMI receiver that offers Dolby Headphone. Unfortunately, of the few that do offer it, I think only Harman Kardon offers it in their cheaper receivers, and I REALLY dislike HK AVRs. Had an awful experience trying to set up an AVR254, but besides all that, these receivers don't pass through HDMI video untouched, they reprocess it (presumably to insert an OSD).


That's the absolute last resort, i want everything integrated into my HTPC, even if it means much more $ all up!

Thanks!

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #10 –
@Andy O, sorry to bump only 30hrs after my last post & only 40.5 since yours.

But I don't suppose you could add your thoughts to my last post?
Please could you "have a crack" at addressing every point where possible?

Thank-you so much for all your thoughts thus far...
You & input from others has helped me gain more focus in an area that's very murky for me!

All the best.

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: jalyst on
Quote from: andy o on
I don't know any other sources of HD audio as you put it, other than blu-rays, that's why I was asking. But if you're talking about bitstreaming TrueHD or DTS-HD into this hypothetical HDMI device, I think you're in even worse luck.


No as explained for BD it prolly won't be needed, because I can just decrypt and then play using my PC's local sound-card right?

If you can decrypt it, your sound card doesn't have to have PAP to play the full audio, but you'll also need a player that doesn't downconvert unencrypted content. MPC-HC is one, but it only plays files, not blu-rays with menus, etc. I don't think there's any actual full blu-ray players that don't downconvert if you don't have a PAP card, though I don't think there's a legal reason, they (Arcsoft, Cyberlink, etc.) are just probably being lazy.

Quote
Not so sure in Windows, I know in Linux it's a process of decrypt + transcode, then the end product is exactly the same quality-wise.
Alas I'm sure there's quite a few PS3 games that employ HD audio formats and even the odd Xbox, do you disagree on that point?
If you transcode, unless it's to a lossless format, quality will degrade, in Linux or in Windows. Quality doesn't change when you remux, which is probably what you meant? I rip and remux to mkv to watch in a better player (MPC-HC with madVR). I can bitstream TrueHD and DTS-HD to my receiver with ffdshow, as well. I don't know about games using HD audio formats, but I don't see a reason why they would use lossless, and even less anything higher than 48/16. Unless they were just trying to fill the game disc with very low priority data.

Quote
Yeah I think that route's getting too crazy, especially when it's only for a vain attempt to capture "HD audio" from the odd PS3/Xbox game.
Even if a suitable device exists, surely there'd have to substantial degradation from the original source before reaching my Essence? I mean 1st DAC would be pretty crappy, no matter how good the ADC is capturing that output, "the horse has already bolted", right?

I don't think it would be audible if the components are just OK. Consensus around here seems to be that you don't have to get fancy to do AD/DA conversion transparently. That's why I said that you shouldn't worry too much about what's doing the DAC. But there are far more knowledgeable persons here that can expand on that.

Quote
Quote
Actually, since game audio is already lossy-compressed, I do think HDMI uncompressed output is probably better so as to not to do a double compression via Dolby Digital Live, but again, the trouble seems far too much for the (questionable) gain.


Huh?

I meant that lossy-recompressing lossy audio is bad. If you're gonna lossy-compress, it's optimal to do from a lossless source. It's very likely still inaudible though, especially if you're concentrating on gaming. I play GT5 with 7.1 audio with optical out (the PS3 recompresses the LPCM 7.1 into 5.1 lossy DTS or DD) into the SU-DH1 (that's one D/A), then out to a Kleer wireless transmitter which is digital (one A/D) and to Sennheiser Kleer headphones (another D/A). Sound is excellent, I have no complaints at all.

Quote
That's the absolute last resort, i want everything integrated into my HTPC, even if it means much more $ all up!

I would not buy a HK receiver, but if you could find a non-HK one (I think Denon and Marantz use DH in some of theirs) then it's probably the better idea. You don't use speakers at all?

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #12 –
Well now because you made me look, I found myself wanting this. I have a Pioneer VSX-01 though, and no money to spare, so too bad for me. But if I were you, I'd get on it.

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #13 –
Thanks mate you're a legend!
340am here, need some shut-eye, will read & respond in-full soon.
Hopefully with no more questions to bug you with!

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #15 –
If any moderators are around, can you please change title of this thread to:
HDMI capture device that can capture (unencrypted) "HD" audio sources?

Reviving this thread soon.....
 

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #16 –
Quote
Oh I'm not arguing it'll be legal, at least according to the the US's DMCA...
But I don't want to circumvent HDCP for illegitimate purposes e.g. copying copyright content.

Here's one example of a card that can capture hdcp sources
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1457132#post1457132
There's one or two other examples if i recall correctly...


And of course one doesn't need to limit themselves to card with a software flaw that allows one to circumvent HDCP.
There are strippers aplenty around now, including ones that supposedly pass "HD" audio via HDMI.
One small problem though, there still isn't bloody anything that can capture that passed "HD" audio!

The only thing I've found so far that comes close is this.
But it's not clear whether it's "HD" DD/DTS, or just regular 5.1.
I suspect it'll only be 2-ch PCM & hence just regular DD/DTS.
I'm emailing them for more detail....

The only other devices that come kinda close, but I doubt will be usable are:
http://www.grassvalley.com/products/pegasus
Available via USB or PCIe
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
No PCI/e card option...
http://www.matrox.com/video/en/products/pc/mxo2_family/
Still not listed on OEM's site, I've emailed to find out when they'll release, & for more detail
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1491617#post1491617

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #17 –
Have you read up about the legality of such a device, no matter if it's unencrypted? Cause I can't think of a lot of multichannel content that would need a capture card, that's not copyrighted. It's likely that they don't come up with the device because they just can't. HDMI really sucks in so many levels.

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #18 –
If any moderators are around, can you please change title of this thread to:
HDMI device that can capture (unencrypted) "HD" audio sources?

Man it sux that you can't edit or delete prior posts in this forum, I wanted to clarify/de-obfuscate a few things.
I also want to edit post #17, but I'll now just have to re-post in edited format, & add yet more unnecessary posts to the thread.

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: andy o on
Have you read up about the legality of such a device, no matter if it's unencrypted? Cause I can't think of a lot of multichannel content that would need a capture card, that's not copyrighted. It's likely that they don't come up with the device because they just can't. HDMI really sucks in so many levels.


Oh yeah I totally understand why it's hard to find such a device.
I'm amazed however that there hasn't been a few "Asian solutions" yet.
Posting an update to my earlier post....
Plz lemme know which way you reckon is most prudent for what I'm wanting to achieve (or at least close to it).

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #20 –

And of course one doesn't need to limit themselves to cards w/a software flaw that allows one to circumvent HDCP.
There are strippers aplenty around now, including ones that supposedly pass "HD" audio via HDMI.
One small problem though, there still isn't bloody anything that can capture that passed "HD" audio!

The only thing I've found so far that comes close is this.
But it's not clear whether it's "HD"* DD/DTS, or just regular 5.1.
I suspect it'll only be 2-ch PCM & hence just regular DD/DTS?
I'm emailing them for more detail....

Also the colossus will supposedly have DTS 5.1 support soon, along with DD 5.1 via HDMI.
It's only 2-ch PCM & of course can't support the "HD" formats I was hoping for, but it's likely to be better supported than the above option.

The only other devices that come kinda close, but I doubt will be usable unless anyone can verify/debunk are:
http://www.grassvalley.com/products/pegasus
Available via USB or PCIe
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
No PCI/e card option...
http://www.matrox.com/video/en/products/pc/mxo2_family/
Still not listed on OEM's site, I've emailed to find out when they'll release, & for more detail
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1491617#post1491617

Not every BD utilises HD audio & it's not for capturing HD audio from BD's anyway, as that can be done "on PC".
It's for capturing HD audio that's sometimes used in PS3 games, and on the rare occasion, Xbox games.
Although for the latter I won't be able to grab HD audio, because Xbox's can only pass DD/DTS 5.1 2ch LPCM externally.

But it's looking increasingly unlikely that a HDMI device that can capture HD audio exists.
So I may have to settle for one of the aforementioned, or one of the soundcards that does the same.

OR...

A multi-ch analogue capture card, but that just gets too complicated don't you reckon?!?
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta44.html
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta66.html
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010LT.html

If I go for digital capture....
I'm leaning more towards the colossus, as it can also capture/transcode analogue, which may be handy if DVB-C tuning's unreliable!

*"HD" = DTS-MA & TrueHD 7.1 (& more) HD surround formats

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: jalyst on
Quote
Oh I'm not arguing it'll be legal, at least according to the the US's DMCA...
But I don't want to circumvent HDCP for illegitimate purposes e.g. copying copyright content.

Here's one example of a card that can capture hdcp sources
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1457132#post1457132
There's one or two other examples if i recall correctly...


And of course one doesn't need to limit themselves to card with a software flaw that allows one to circumvent HDCP.
There are strippers aplenty around now, including ones that supposedly pass "HD" audio via HDMI.
One small problem though, there still isn't bloody anything that can capture that passed "HD" audio!

The only thing I've found so far that comes close is this.
But it's not clear whether it's "HD" DD/DTS, or just regular 5.1.
I suspect it'll only be 2-ch PCM & hence just regular DD/DTS.
I'm emailing them for more detail....

The only other devices that come kinda close, but I doubt will be usable are:
http://www.grassvalley.com/products/pegasus
Available via USB or PCIe
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
No PCI/e card option...
http://www.matrox.com/video/en/products/pc/mxo2_family/
Still not listed on OEM's site, I've emailed to find out when they'll release, & for more detail
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1491617#post1491617


I own one of these, but I've only captured  HD video plus  2 channel audio with it via HDMI:

Avermedia HDMI capture card

The program was from a local OTA TV channel, so no harm, no foul.

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #22 –
Hi Arnold thank for adding you thoughts,
Yes as mentioned that can only do 2ch PCM & none of the DD/DTS formats.
So of my only options, which would you chose and why?  Thanks!

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: jalyst on
Hi Arnold thank for adding you thoughts,
Yes as mentioned that can only do 2ch PCM & none of the DD/DTS formats.
So of my only options, which would you chose and why?  Thanks!


IMO, I lack enough information to make an intelligent choice.

I can see where capturing sound over HDMI can be quite complex. So many options.

HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?

Reply #24 –
Okay that's fair enough
I'm not gunna give up though!