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Topic: certain LP damage (Read 5705 times) previous topic - next topic
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certain LP damage

An LP transfer I started today has a much greater concentration of clicks and noise in the first 20 seconds, both sides, than elsewhere. I've observed this hundreds of times; the great majority of LPs I've worked with are that way.

Most often the area of greater damage extends to about 60 seconds in, but the main point is that there is something different about the outer edge of the disk. A quite similar situation exists, at least as far as symptoms go, at the end of the last track, each side, on most LPs (the end of the music section, not what's on the ungrooved area surrounding the label). This particular LP, however, does not seem to have more damage at the end than elsewhere (excluding the outer edge).

Since the majority of my disks come from thrift stores, I can't know their history. I've hypothesized that poor handling leads to dirt being smeared around the outer rim by careless fingers, but this doesn't seem to account for the similar symptoms at the end of the last track.

I've thought about the fact that tonearm alignment and adjustment has to be less effective at the extremes, but while this should mean more distortion, I don't see how it can results in more scratches and scuffs, or some other condition(s) that mimics them.

This particular LP was purchased new. I don't know just when, but quite likely more recently than my current TT. I'm sure that well before I obtained this TT, I knew about, and practiced, LP handling that assures my fingers never get near the grooves. I'm also sure this particular LP was never played more than a few times. The recording reveals that its general condition, aside from the first 20 seconds of each side, is indeed "like new."

I've considered the possibility that my cleaning procedure may be causing damage, but I can't see how, especially damage that would be limited to certain specific parts of the disk. I did spend some time with a light and magnifying glass today to see if I could find anything unexpected on any of the tools. Nothing showed.

Do any of you who do many LPs transfers observe something similar? Do you have any insight as to why?

certain LP damage

Reply #1 –
I haven't seen anything exactly the same.

For "thrift store purchases" (couldn't you just "say records I bought from charity shops"?  ) I think it's sometimes handling, but also often because someone just plays the first few seconds, and then changes their mind and decides to play something else instead. So the start gets played more, and sometimes on a bad turntable (e.g. at a party!).

The nasty sound at the end of LPs I've always put down to the combination of low velocity, poor alignment, and the usual crescendo at the end of the music. this just gives more distortion, not necessarily more clicks (though if it's really grungy it's hard to separate the two).


I wonder if one of the metal master parts was checked just by playing the first and last 30 seconds? I believe older practice was always to play one of the masters through before making stampers - maybe they skimp on this process now, and somehow damage the metal part in the process?

Cheers,
David.

certain LP damage

Reply #2 –
Quote from: AndyH-ha on
An LP transfer I started today has a much greater concentration of clicks and noise in the first 20 seconds, both sides, than elsewhere.

This is where the stylus first crashes down onto the record.

certain LP damage

Reply #3 –
Quote from: honestguv on
Quote from: AndyH-ha on

An LP transfer I started today has a much greater concentration of clicks and noise in the first 20 seconds, both sides, than elsewhere.

This is where the stylus first crashes down onto the record.


It can also be a function of the innersleeve.  Many of them have a cutout on one side of the opening to make it easier to grasp the record.  When the album is in the sleeve and in the jacket, the record will roll a little bit and expose some of the edge of the record to the cardboard jacket.  Take the album in an out over the years and the scratches will be made around the entire circumfernce of the lp (and on both sides).

That would be my guess.

BTW, I used to pick up lps at 2nd hand stores.  It was a treasure trove at one point - some real gems would turn up.

certain LP damage

Reply #4 –
Is there something offensive or suggestive about the phrase “thrift store purchases?”

I can understand first contact being more harsh but that happens in the lead in groove, not throughout the first minute of music. Just playing the first minute to sample the album does offer more opportunity for damage, but did people really do that so often that the majority of disks out of 900 random purchases would show the symptoms? It has never been a practice of mine, but I guess I’m not tuned into the cultural norms.

Of course the disk should never be “grasped” for removal from the inner sleeve, but people do all sorts of things. That cutoff doesn’t expose any of the groove, at least for the majority of LPs, so simple contact with the outer sleeve doesn’t seem a very likely cause.

I’m sure neither of those is the case with this LP, however, since I know better than to put my fingers where they don’t belong and I bought it new.  In addition to only having been played a couple times, it hasn’t been otherwise moved around over the years. The same applies to others I have that have never been owned or handled by anyone else but still have this uneven distribution of damage. Of course, if other people don’t see this on their transfers, it is suggestive of something strange here.

It is still possible to find some very nice music in the thrift stores, but one has to look through a lot of albums for every one that is worth while. More than a few of those disks that contain the nice music would be worthless without the magic of computer software.

certain LP damage

Reply #5 –
Most lead-ins are very significantly sloped; the outer edge of the record is thicker than the part of the record containing the music, so the stylus effectively rides downwards for some ways after the music starts. The label area is just as thick. This has been argued, on a theoretical basis, to mess up the azimuth of the stylus on the lead-in and lead-out and could lead to reduced tracking ability, which could lead to more ticks and pops. I'm not aware of anybody actually proving this, though.

Also, because of this sloped surface, the lead-in and lead-out will be physically closer to whatever sleeve is holding the record. Perhaps they are just more liable to touch dirt?

The problem should disappear with 200g records, which do not have a sloped surface. So try and hunt down a record without the slope, and see what you notice.

EDIT: Note that used 200g records are really, really rare, or are generally collector's items. And don't buy the Classic Records 200g releases. They are, by most accounts, crap.

certain LP damage

Reply #6 –
Some of the older vinyl is really thick, quite noticeably more so than the one disk I have with any particular label. This is the Cardas Sweep and Burn-in Record, claimed to be 180 gram. I don't know if you mean such old disks or are only referring to the relatively newer releases where quality is supposedly the goal.

I have no memory of either which old LP was heavy nor which in particular matched this inner/outer edge profile, but I can be on the look out from now on. Maybe some day I could find some energy to shift through my collection of finished disks and try re-recording a few.

The Cardas LP was a real disappointment. Recording it, during its first play, was good evidence that I must be doing something wrong (don't know what thought) because it had so many (relatively small)  clicks and bursts of messy noise throughout. All the test LPs are incredibly stupidly made, with no lead-ins, that it is hard to say what the pressing might really be like in the first few seconds of each track, but I think the Cardas LP has a lead in groove from the outer edge to the first track. I can see that my stored recording has plenty of noise and clicks prior to the beginning of the first test signal, but it is hard to be certain the density is greater than some other places across that poor excuse for a quality pressing.

certain LP damage

Reply #7 –
Quote from: AndyH-ha on
Is there something offensive or suggestive about the phrase “thrift store purchases?”
From your posting times, I assumed you were in the UK/EU. “thrift store purchases” sounds (is?) American. If you are American, that's OK. If you're from the UK, then maybe you're doing what I find myself doing: translating posts into American/international English in my head to aid understanding. I'm trying to stop doing this, because it's catching on and we risk losing UK English within a generation!

Not offended though, either way. I just woke up to the issue the other week when someone in the office said "My Bad".

The sad thing is, I don't know of any UK English-isms which have made their way into American English in the last, well, lifetime!

Cheers,
David.

certain LP damage

Reply #8 –
Many of them are associated with charitable organizations such as the Salvation Army and the American Cancer Society, but thrift shop is all I’ve ever seen them called around here.
 

certain LP damage

Reply #9 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
The sad thing is, I don't know of any UK English-isms which have made their way into American English in the last, well, lifetime!


In the US, most people that I've talked to treat UK English like a joke; your words, for lack of a better term, sound "silly" to many of us (for example, I can't imagine working on my car and seriously referring to the hood as a bonnet). One saying around here is, "those damn English, they invented the language and they can't even speak it!"

No disrespect intended, I hope I didn't come off that way...and apologies for going off topic

certain LP damage

Reply #10 –
I've been known to use the following words/phrases on occasion:

bloody
queue
bespoke
bob's your uncle
bollocks
boffin

certain LP damage

Reply #11 –
I trace my use of the one that starts with "wan" and ends with "ker" due to exposure to the This Is Spinal Tap movie as a teenager.  that probably makes me a bit of a prat, though.

-brendan

certain LP damage

Reply #12 –
Quote from: hushypushy on
for example, I can't imagine working on my car and seriously referring to the hood as a bonnet

So what do you call the hood on a car? (In the UK, the "hood" is the fabric roof on a convertible).

certain LP damage

Reply #13 –
A roof is a roof, even if it is a soft top.

certain LP damage

Reply #14 –
LPs are CAV, so the needle is being dragged through the groove a lot faster at the rim than inside. This may lead to dirt causing worse long-term damage there than towards the center. However, since the groove has to carry a lot more information per length unit where the linear velocity is slower, the "encoding" is worse there (if you're thinking in binary terms, you might say that the further out you go, the higher the bitrate gets ).