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Topic: Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question) (Read 6038 times) previous topic - next topic
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Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

OK this is my first forum topic here. Ive heard some really good things about this site so I was really hoping you guys could help me out.

I love music, always have, hopefully always will, perfect sound quality isnt really of the utmost importance to me, bu it is still really important. I just got an iPod for my birthday to upload my CD collection and 6000+ MP3 collection to, but recent research of mine has shown that MP3 is by far not the best. I dont have much space left on my harddrive, but I will be getting a bigger one or two more strictly for audio storage.

Now..the iPod issue...I have conversed with many a people about what to encode as, but I have not gotten the same answer from anybody. With my current sound syste, ($50 Sony Studio Monitoring Headphones), I cant tell the difference between 320 KBps MP3/AAC files and CD quality audio (ALE, APE, FLAC, AIFF, WAV, CDs). From now on I will be obtaining higher end sound (APE, FLAC, WAV etc) when possible, 320 KBps if I cant find those, and 192 KBps Mp3s if Im desperate, but NO lower.

Now...considering I am a Senior in highschool as of September and will be preparing for college and will be putting most of my money towards a car, college tuition, gas money, etc, I most likely wont be getting a high end sound system until AFTER college, unless a mircle happens and I get tons of money, but lets think realistically.

But as of now, I want to get the most out of my audio, considering what Ive told you above. So I have a few questions...hear they are:

1. Is it true that AAC is in all ways, besides compatability, better than MP3?

2. Will buying a great pair of headphones $150+ Sennheiser, Bose, etc (as an example).. be a waste when it comes to using it with an iPod or conventional protable CD player?

3. If not, will I be able to tell the difference between MP3/AAC audio and CD quality audio, with those headphones, because as of now, I cant with my $50 Sony Studio monitoring headphones?

4. Is it worth buying cds anymore?

I only have a 60GB 5G iPod, so space is an issue, plus Im kinda leaning away from Lossless encoding on the iPod, as it takes way to much power and space.


So taking all that into consideration, what would be the best way to go? Help would be GREATLY appreciated.

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #1 –
Quote
Now...considering I am a Senior in highschool as of September and will be preparing for college and will be putting most of my money towards a car, college tuition, gas money, etc, I most likely wont be getting a high end sound system until AFTER college, unless a mircle happens and I get tons of money, but lets think realistically.

But as of now, I want to get the most out of my audio, considering what Ive told you above. So I have a few questions...hear they are:

1. Is it true that AAC is in all ways, besides compatability, better than MP3?

2. Will buying a great pair of headphones $150+ Sennheiser, Bose, etc (as an example).. be a waste when it comes to using it with an iPod or conventional protable CD player?

3. If not, will I be able to tell the difference between MP3/AAC audio and CD quality audio, with those headphones, because as of now, I cant with my $50 Sony Studio monitoring headphones?

4. Is it worth buying cds anymore?

I only have a 60GB 5G iPod, so space is an issue, plus Im kinda leaning away from Lossless encoding on the iPod, as it takes way to much power and space.


1. AAC is part of the MPEG consortium standard and yes in terms of the technology or what's going on "underneath" the hood AAC is much more sophisticated. There are many implementations of it too Nero, ITunes, etc.
2. No it won't be, especially if they are under warrenty. Case in point I have a pair of Sennheiser PCX250 closed-canes with noise cancelling for travelling around. 
3. Everyone ear's are different. Around here it's recommended you perform a blind ABX test. ABXing testing is realatively straightforward and takes about 15 minutes to get setup with. Do a search in the wiki.
4. Yes, always, especially if you can find them for dirt cheap. This way you can make lossless backup copies of them through ripping using ALAC so you can store them on your IPod or using a different lossless codec like FLAC. That's what I usually do. It's either that or you can encode to AAC from ALAC, etc for your portable. I don't know what restrictions the IPod has in terms of DRM though. 

Don't worry about the hi-end stuff right, just save the money for those books which will probably cost you well over $250 ;D
budding I.T professional

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #2 –
My personal preferences:

Lossless - I use FLAC for playback, storage and transcoding.  It's also handy in case you want to make a backup CD that's almost spot on with the original.

Lossy - I use LAME APS for portable use.  I own a 3rd generation 20 GB iPod and the sound quality of the mp3s I have on it is very close to the original CD in my opinion. 

You can even setup foobar2000 to transcode your lossless FLAC files directly to your iPod if you have fooPod installed and setup.

With this setup I am one happy camper.

This is of course just my personal preference and I would strongly recommend you read around and try things out for yourself before making a decision on how to encode your entire collection.

Remember though that lossless is lossless and you can always transcode from a lossless source over to another if you change your mind.

Good luck,
JXL

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Shpongled on
With my current sound syste, ($50 Sony Studio Monitoring Headphones), I cant tell the difference between 320 KBps MP3/AAC files and CD quality audio (ALE, APE, FLAC, AIFF, WAV, CDs). From now on I will be obtaining higher end sound (APE, FLAC, WAV etc) when possible, 320 KBps if I cant find those, and 192 KBps Mp3s if Im desperate, but NO lower.

did you abxed?

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #4 –
Quote from: kwanbis on
did you abxed?


Don't be so anal...

He said 'I can't tell the difference...'  He wasn't making some statement about one having superiour sound quality over the other.  He just wants someone to point him in the right direction is all and help clarify a few things.

JXL

Edit: Typos...curse you!

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #5 –
Ok...what ABXed?


I tried the Foopod 0.9.9 and It wasnt compatible with my Foobar2000 0.9.3 and it says in the readme that it was made for Foobar2000 version 0.8. Is there a place I can get an updated version of Foo Pod or at least the older verseion of Foobar2000?

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Shpongled on
Ok...what ABXed?


An ABX test is used to determine if someone can hear a difference between two audio clips. In this case, the original music, and a lossy encoding.

In the new version of foobar, you can easily ABX two tracks by selecting them both, right-click, and Utils -> ABX Two Tracks. Start with comparing a 128 kb/s AAC encode to the lossless, and work your way up from there. I think there's a stick on ABX in the forums somewhere, read that also.

Generally, new codecs like AAC achieve transparency in the 160 kb/s range. After running some ABX tests myself, I found 160 kb/s was more than enough quality, and it saved a lot of space. I'd been using 256 kb/s before, out of superstition and paranoia ("I must avoid the artifacts!") but the difference was all in my head. The ABX tests showed that.

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #7 –
well I encoded my Pink Floyd's the Division Bell to 320 kbps AAC and uploaded to the iPod and compared that to the actual cd playing in portable cd player while using the $50 Studio Monitoring Headphones. The CD just sounded sort "fuller" so to speak as compared to the AAC version on the iPod. It seemed to have more of a punchier sound with the kicks and the piano's seemed to be engulfing more of the sound area than the AAC, and the reverb on the AAC seemed kinda louder and with more treble than the CD. Im thinking this is just placebo, but I dunno....I wish there was a way to make the volume level on the iPod the same as my cd player to make it more acurate.

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Shpongled on
well I encoded my Pink Floyd's the Division Bell to 320 kbps AAC and uploaded to the iPod and compared that to the actual cd playing in portable cd player while using the $50 Studio Monitoring Headphones. The CD just sounded sort "fuller" so to speak as compared to the AAC version on the iPod.


This is why we require ABX around here

Quote from: Shpongled on
It seemed to have more of a punchier sound with the kicks and the piano's seemed to be engulfing more of the sound area than the AAC, and the reverb on the AAC seemed kinda louder and with more treble than the CD. Im thinking this is just placebo, but I dunno....I wish there was a way to make the volume level on the iPod the same as my cd player to make it more acurate.


What are you trying to test?  AAC?  Your Ipod?  Your CD player?  Make up your mind, pick one, and go from there.

My suggestion:

Since you probably can't ABX 128k MP3, start by ruling out MP3 and AAC.  If you really want to compare DACs, well you'll have your work cut out for you.  A better idea then listening to them (since doing this correctly is probably beyond your means) would be to use a tool like RMAA to measure their performance and then assume that less noise and better frequency response will sound better (which is probably a good assumption).

Quote
1. Is it true that AAC is in all ways, besides compatability, better than MP3?


At 320k?  No, they're basically identical.

At 128k?  No, they're still pretty much identical.

Lower and AAC is better.  Maybe 96k, definately by 64k.

There are other differences, but "better" is going to be subjective.

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #9 –
I was testing the 320kbps AAC on my iPod and the CD on my CD player and com paring the two

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Shpongled on
I was testing the 320kbps AAC on my iPod and the CD on my CD player and com paring the two


Yes, you said that in your first post.  My comment was about the problems with that comparison.

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #11 –
Oh i see. My bad.

My friends at guitar center have told me numerous times that the iPod and the CD player will play the music the exact same way, but it depends on what file format, and that If i hear wny difference at all its because of the file format. They also say that you can ehar the difference on any normal pari of headphones, especially with MDR-V300 studio monitoring headphones like mine. Can anyone validate this?

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #12 –
Unless your alternative to an ipod is lugging around your home stereo, I truly don't understand your comparison.

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #13 –
whats there to not understand?

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #14 –
I'll be more direct (but hopefully perceived as direct in a nice way):

The tests you performed had too many variables...just because your friends say the ipod and cd player will play the same audio the same does not make it true.  You cannot determine from the tests you have just performed whether the audio formats, the hardware, your methods, or some combination were the causes of the differences you perceived.

There are a couple of tests you should perform, and standardize them to remove variable not specific to the hardware/formats you want to compare.

A. Testing the audio output of the CD player vs. the iPod using lossless data.  Your best bet would be playing a pristine CD on the CD player against the same audion securely ripped from that CD into a lossless file (ALAC or possibly FLAC if you can load rockbox on it), as the decoders for lossless formats are generally accepted to be bit-perfect.  So, in both cases, the WAV/PCM data should be the same. 

Both devices should be set to the same presets (disable  EQ/enhancement/loudness/etc. and set to the exact same volume) and should be tested through the same audio headphones or stereo systems.  In order to remove any preconceptions from playing a part, you should have the assistance of a non-biased helper who will be changing the inputs so you'll be doing the tests blindly.

B. Testing the lossless audio formats.  Similar procedures to the above, but with only one device that can handle the multiple formats you ripped from the same CD.

-brendan

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Shpongled on
Ok...what ABXed?


I tried the Foopod 0.9.9 and It wasnt compatible with my Foobar2000 0.9.3 and it says in the readme that it was made for Foobar2000 version 0.8. Is there a place I can get an updated version of Foo Pod or at least the older verseion of Foobar2000?


ReallyRarewares
I'm the one in the picture, sitting on a giant cabbage in Mexico, circa 1978.
Reseñas de Rock en Español: www.estadogeneral.com

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #16 –
If you really want to perform the test you would encode a few songs in mp3 or aac as well as ALAC and put them on your ipod. Have a friend control which one is played so you dont know. Play the alac, then either the mp3 or the alac, and see if you can tell the difference. If you cant tell the difference between the mp3 at 128 and the alac, then stick with the mp3.

Many tests here have shown that the LAME mp3 VBR ~128 is a VERY good quality that most people wont be able to tell apart from the original CD.

As for getting CDs, try lala.com , its a great, cheap resource for CDs.
 

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #17 –
I can tell the difference between CD and 320 KBps AAC, but its not that big of a difference, one that I could only tell If I was comparing the AAC and the CD at the same time. But I still havnt decied to go with quality over quantity, with 320kbps AAC and have about 30 gigs left on the iPod, or quantity over quality, with ALE/ALAC and have like 7 Gigs left.

Big Trouble with Little iPod (many a question)

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Shpongled on
I can tell the difference between CD and 320 KBps AAC, but its not that big of a difference, one that I could only tell If I was comparing the AAC and the CD at the same time. But I still havnt decied to go with quality over quantity, with 320kbps AAC and have about 30 gigs left on the iPod, or quantity over quality, with ALE/ALAC and have like 7 Gigs left.


Have you ABXed it? 

Also, theres a different ipod plugin for foobar .9.  Its called foo_dop.