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Topic: Expensive headphones? (Read 25723 times) previous topic - next topic
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Expensive headphones?

Cost/performance frugality set aside, are the really expensive headphones like the HD800, or even the 600/650 really better in any objective way than the cheaper headphones like the HD280, Maudio Q40? I don't believe any recording pros use headphones at the audiophile price. So if the expensive headphones are really better, does that mean the audiophiles have better equipment than the pros who recorded their albums?

Expensive headphones?

Reply #1 –
There is the limit where uping the specs loses the sense, as our ears aren't that perfect.
I know few people who's into pro recording, and they have monitor speakers and usually one pair of headphones, I remember one of them is using AKG K240 headphones, and they are not that cheap nor expensive. I would say golden middle.
(EDIT: forgot the letter )
TAPE LOADING ERROR

Expensive headphones?

Reply #2 –
Well, HD 600/650/800 are open headphones.  They would leak the sound during the recording. 
It's loud enough to hear even in few meters.
While HD 280 pro are close.

Expensive headphones?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: IgorC on
Well, HD 600/650/800 are open headphones.  They would leak the sound during the recording. 
It's loud enough to hear even in few meters.
While HD 280 pro are close.

There are also very expensive closed headphones, like the Denons for example. And they leak.

My question is are the sub200 dollar headphones that the recording engineers use as good as headphones can get? I mean the headphones were invented in the early 20th century, and how much more "advanced" can this technology mature to?

Expensive headphones?

Reply #4 –
I believe the term "better" is a highly personal qualification to begin with, especially when talking about headphones or loudspeakers.  I bought my HD600 after comparing it to some other models of both Sennheiser and other brands, prices ranging from quite a bit less to quite a bit more than the HD600. 

Please note that these were all sighted tests at different locations, and I do have a fairly strong bias in favor of Sennheiser to begin with.

At least for me the rule of more expensive equals better does not apply.

I checked out the HD650 at one time, but despite the fact that I in general love the Sennheiser sound, it did not do it for me.  The same happened when I was looking for a headphone to monitor recordings while my wife was performing.  I tried both the HD280 Pro and the HD380 Pro; for me the latter sounded  better and I bought it (did a rather quick ABX on that one, but probably not valid because I think the "pressure against the skull" was noticeably different; the guy at the shop thought I was nuts).  However, when simply listening to music, I prefer the HD600 almost every time (I really like the HD380 in airplanes).

I don't know any recording pros personally, but I read on another forum about a guy and his colleagues who work at a recording studio using the HD800 exclusively.  But this is just hearsay. 

Bottom line...  To find out if a more expensive headphone is better (for you), you will have to check them out yourself!

Expensive headphones?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: HTS on
I mean the headphones were invented in the early 20th century, and how much more "advanced" can this technology mature to?


There are many things that were invented in that time (or earlier or later), and they improve too.  As long as people spend time in finding ways to optimise an existing technology / discovering new technologies, it can come with a real improvement.

Expensive headphones?

Reply #6 –
Indeed - the internal combustion engine springs immediately to mind.

FWIW, I have a pair of "professional" Audio Technica ATH-M40 headphones that I bought in 1997 for $160 that are still going strong to this day - and I've used them so much, there is virtually no lettering left on the outside of the earpieces.

Now, I don't consider them to be particularly "balanced" sounding headphones - I much prefer my Sony MDR-V6's (<$100) for music listening.  However, their overall character is actually quite flattering to movie soundtracks (which tend to sound rather bright or even harsh when listened to through headphones), so that's what I mainly use them for these days.
"Not sure what the question is, but the answer is probably no."

Expensive headphones?

Reply #7 –
I think the biggest problem with audio stuff in general (and other industries as well) that twice the price does not mean twice the quality...  If one would do a direct comparison to a HD600 and a HD800, I am sure the latter will prove to be the better one (at least I hope so).  But will it be 4 times better as the price might suggest?  Obviously not!  When you are buying "top of the line" products, you will pay relatively more for it than cheaper products that have larger sales because there are more people that can actually afford to buy them. 

Another thing is that when you tell people that you spend US$ 1,400 on a pair of speakers (especially if they have something to show for in respect of size and finish), people will say "good for you", but if you tell the same people that you have spend the same amount of money on headphones, they will usually raise an eyebrow and think "that guy must be nuts".  Headphones are usually nothing much to show for :-)



Expensive headphones?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: HTS on
My question is are the sub200 dollar headphones that the recording engineers use as good as headphones can get? I mean the headphones were invented in the early 20th century, and how much more "advanced" can this technology mature to?


The 100-200 dollar mark tends to be about where quality stops increasing all that quickly as you spend more.  I wouldn't say you can't do better then that, but it'll cost you a lot more to do a little better.  At least IMO.

Expensive headphones?

Reply #9 –
For many years, the HD600 was Sennheiser's top-of-the-line model . Than came the HD650 and two years ago finally the HD800. At the same time, most other top brands like beyerdynamic and AKG threw new, expensive models at the market. So did all those companies suddenly achieve a technological break-through that justified those new headphones? Probably not. They rather realized, as Sennheiser did, that there is a market for expensive, audiophilish headphones (when you think about it, it is rather surprising that it took them so long to realize that...)

Is the HD800 better than the HD650? Probably. Is the added quality proportional to the increase in price? Certainly not. For example, there is a Taiwanese manufacturer of audio gear that sells headphones at ~30€ in Europe which easily can compete with brand headphones up to 200€ (they actually sound very much like a beyerdynamic DT990). Of course, if you wan't to start a flame-war, go to one of those audiophile forums and claim that there is a 30€ headphone which sounds as good as a DT990. Those people will always happily pay horrendous prices for audio gear, but what they really want to purchase is some kind of identity rather than objective quality... and why shouldn't Sennheiser & co supply? The former certainly yields a larger profit margin
 

Expensive headphones?

Reply #10 –
Yeah,
It is nice to see that people noticed that after announce of HD800 some other companies have invented the equivalent price level headphones.
Speaking of Taiwanese manufactures. Can you bring a little bit of information on it? Links, prices, performance.
I think time is another factor.  People just prefer pay once and get the first class headphones and don´t spend their time to figure out high quality and good price products. Well, time is money too.

Expensive headphones?

Reply #11 –
Nevermind.

Expensive headphones?

Reply #13 –
I'm still waiting until I can get a USB socket put in my head, bypassing the ear altogether

Expensive headphones?

Reply #14 –
Even then we will have audiophile-grade implants and people ranting about neuronal jitter... the term skin effect would change its meaning though.

Expensive headphones?

Reply #15 –
so is the HD800 just a giant HD600, and the HD600 a giant HD555?

Expensive headphones?

Reply #16 –
No, they are quite differently constructed. And they do sound a bit different. Most people who own the HD800 would probably say that it sounds much better - but then, if I had paid 1000€ for it I would also like to believe this...

Expensive headphones?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Northpack on
Most people who own the HD800 would probably say that it sounds much better - but then, if I had paid 1000€ for it I would also like to believe this...


I would say that someone who bought the HD800 would have spend quite some time to listen to it and decided / believed it actually was worth the EUR 1000.  But I think that this usually applies for people who have to "save up" for, or at least think twice about, spendings like this. 

Expensive headphones?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Northpack on
Most people who own the HD800 would probably say that it sounds much better - but then, if I had paid 1000€ for it I would also like to believe this...

And no better example of this are the responses to a mildly negative review of them. It's amazing the lengths audiophiles will go to rationalize their purchases.

Expensive headphones?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: thesurfingalien on
I would say that someone who bought the HD800 would have spend quite some time to listen to it and decided / believed it actually was worth the EUR 1000.  But I think that this usually applies for people who have to "save up" for, or at least think twice about, spendings like this.

The problem is that those tests are as worthwhile (i.e. not much) as those expensive wine tests unless they're blind. If a test like those wine tests where they put an expensive label on a cheap-ish wine was made, I wouldn't be surprised to find similar results in audiophilia.

Expensive headphones?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: andy o on
Quote from: Northpack on
Most people who own the HD800 would probably say that it sounds much better - but then, if I had paid 1000€ for it I would also like to believe this...

And no better example of this are the responses to a mildly negative review of them. It's amazing the lengths audiophiles will go to rationalize their purchases.


What a lovely review. It describes what I always expected: good, but not worth its money. But don´t turn this thread into another audiophile-bashing thread. So far, none of them has showed up, so there´s no need for it    BTW, the musings in this review point out what I´m suspecting for quite some time now: when did this trend start to produce hilariously expensive headphones? Every company (even really small ones) now produce these uber-expensive things. They cannot be better, or am I wrong there? I mean it´s not like the re-invented the weel.

I would never buy this Sennheiser even if I´d be able to do so. One has to pry my HD-600 out of my cold, dead hands. It is one of the most balanced headphones and I never had the desire to replace it. If I had that money I probably would buy a HD-598 and some CDs. Back to the original question, expensive (200,- to 300,-) headphones are probably mostly better than really cheap ones but there are exceptions that have already been mentionend: Superlux. They produce headphones for every taste and use so I´d be starting to look there if possible. They are not available everywhere though and the Superlux site is a really bad place for information because sometimes it simply does not function properly.
marlene-d.blogspot.com

Expensive headphones?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Northpack on
Quote from: IgorC on
Speaking of Taiwanese manufactures. Can you bring a little bit of information on it? Links, prices, performance.

http://www.head-fi.org/products/superlux-hd-668-b

Cavaille wrote an extensive review here.

Great.


Nobody speak about electrostatic headphones here like HD800 was already best possible. The technical specifications of electrostatic headphones like frequency response and distortion are better than of moving coil ones. They are much more expensive.

There are also reference (laboratory) versions of these but probably not available publicly.

Expensive headphones?

Reply #22 –
Is there in fact any reliable way of answering questions of this sort? Since the question "How good do these headphones sound?" is an unavoidably subjective one, you'd need DBT to get reliable answers, but it's hard to think how you could do blind testing of headphones.

With loudspeakers, there's been enough DBT to have a pretty good idea that most people like speakers with a very linear response, so it's possible to use measurements as a very good guide; is there anything like this agreement with headphones? Or do the idiosyncrasies of individual ears complicate things too much?

Expensive headphones?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: MichaelW on
Is there in fact any reliable way of answering questions of this sort? Since the question "How good do these headphones sound?" is an unavoidably subjective one, you'd need DBT to get reliable answers, but it's hard to think how you could do blind testing of headphones.

With loudspeakers, there's been enough DBT to have a pretty good idea that most people like speakers with a very linear response, so it's possible to use measurements as a very good guide; is there anything like this agreement with headphones? Or do the idiosyncrasies of individual ears complicate things too much?

I'm talking about more objective factors. Larger diaphragm (more spacial sounding), larger pitch range, more accurate reproduction of pitches, distinctive bass notes etc...

Basically since most recording studios don't use something like the HD800, the audiophiles are essentially saying that their albums are handicapping their listening equipment.

Expensive headphones?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: HTS on
I'm talking about more objective factors. Larger diaphragm (more spacial sounding), larger pitch range, more accurate reproduction of pitches, distinctive bass notes etc...

The only objective factors which give a sufficient condition to determine the subjective audio quality of headphones are the frequency response, measured with an artificial head, plus several distortion figures (THD, IMD). This is not only theoretically true but has been empirically proved in an AES study mentioned by Cavaille in in his review of the Superlux (PDFs avaiable here and here, see also this thread at HA).

Quote from: HTS on
Basically since most recording studios don't use something like the HD800, the audiophiles are essentially saying that their albums are handicapping their listening equipment.

Indeed. This kind of absurdity becomes most obvious when audiphiles advocate cables which cost $500 a metre in order to listen to records produced in studios equipped with $1/m cables

Quote from: MichaelW on
Is there in fact any reliable way of answering questions of this sort? Since the question "How good do these headphones sound?" is an unavoidably subjective one, you'd need DBT to get reliable answers, but it's hard to think how you could do blind testing of headphones.

If you look into the AES paper linked above, you'll see that it actually introduces some sort of blind testing methodology for headphones.