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Topic: Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck? (Read 20020 times) previous topic - next topic
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Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #25 –
Quote from: PaJaRo on
I always thought  balanced outputs were not only a shielded connection but also a cable with the same signal with opposite phase, which prevents some interferences.


I think this is why Arnold said "take advantagge of most of the benedifts of a balanced input "

After thinking more about it I think that in general Arnold is right (apologies to Bullit for misleading), with the following caveats:

1. I am not sure how big is the most, in other words, how much of SNR improvement one gets from such "fake" balanced connection compared to a true balanced connection.

2. I am not sure if the concept of chassis ground in a computer is equivalent to the chassis ground in audio gear. I have a feeling (but not knowledge) that in some cases (some computers, some soundcards), connecting chassis ground to the "fake" balanced connection could make thing worse.

3. As I said, in typical home connection, with normal cable lengths and line levels it is highly unlikely that the advantage of balanced connection (fake or real) over unbalanced connectio will be noticeable.
Ceterum censeo, there should be an "%is_stop_after_current%".

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #26 –
Quote from: Seeking_Lossless on
Don't underestimate Behringer just because they're manufactured in China. I think most of product in the market now is made from China because the labour cost there are very, very cheap. And not too mention the main facility of Behringer which is for R&D, factory etc. Behringer City is located at China. I'm no expert but many expert review Truth B3030A sound are very and can match some of $1000 Adam's.


I checked my A7s and they are described as "designed and tested by Adam, Berlin, Germany", but I can't find a "made in" label. Which makes me think that they are made in China (or other place that is not cool from the marketing point of view).
Ceterum censeo, there should be an "%is_stop_after_current%".

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #27 –
Quote from: pawelq on
Quote from: PaJaRo on
I always thought  balanced outputs were not only a shielded connection but also a cable with the same signal with opposite phase, which prevents some interferences.


I think this is why Arnold said "take advantagge of most of the benedifts of a balanced input "


The advantage of the output with the opposite polarity is that it effectively doubles the signal voltage. that is applied to the input as compared to not having an output with an opposite phase. All  other things being equal, this can improve the SNR by 6 dB.

Some so-called balanced outputs don't provide the opposite polarity otuput, but do provide a terminal with the same source impedance as the active output. This is called "impedance balancing".  This involves having an jack with the additional terminal, and a resistor connected to signal ground.  This can provide some fairly minimal benefit as compared to replacing the resistor with a direct connection.

Simply connecting one of the two balanced inputs to signal ground on the source equipment can provide a large benefit (in addition to the usual signal connection), limited only by the size fot he problem and the common mode rejection of the input.  I've done this while doing performance measurements of consumer audio gear with only unbalanced outputs, and obtained an obsevered benefit in the range of 10-20 dB.



Quote
After thinking more about it I think that in general Arnold is right (apologies to Bullit for misleading), with the following caveats:

1. I am not sure how big is the most, in other words, how much of SNR improvement one gets from such "fake" balanced connection compared to a true balanced connection.


This benefit is always dependent on each particular sitaution.  There may be no benefit at all. Generally, the worse the grounding problem, the greater the benefit, right up until the noise introduced by the grounding problem exceeds the common mode dynamic range of the balanced input. Transformer-coupled balanced input have common mode dynamic range on the order of 100s or even 1000s of volts. Transformerless balanced inputs have common mode dynamic range in the 5-20 volt range.  I've seen household grounding problems destroy transformerless inputs, or at least not provide enough benefit to be worth while.


Quote
2. I am not sure if the concept of chassis ground in a computer is equivalent to the chassis ground in audio gear. I have a feeling (but not knowledge) that in some cases (some computers, some soundcards), connecting chassis ground to the "fake" balanced connection could make thing worse.


I've enever seen using a "fake" balanced connection provide zero benefit. Grounding problems in equipment are closely realted no matter what kind of equipment it is, whether audio gear or comptuer gear. So much audio gear has either actual on board comptuers or at least enough digital logic that the distinction between computers and audio gear has been thoroughly blurred.

Quote
3. As I said, in typical home connection, with normal cable lengths and line levels it is highly unlikely that the advantage of balanced connection (fake or real) over unbalanced connectio will be noticeable.



I can quantify the problem and you can determine how noticable it will be.  The noise due to residual grounding problems in a short unbalanced interconnection is often no better than about 90 dB below signals in the 1-2 volt range.  The noise in a comparable balanced connection at standard audio production  signal levels  can be down 120 dB or more.

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #28 –
Quote from: pawelq on
Quote from: PaJaRo on
I always thought  balanced outputs were not only a shielded connection but also a cable with the same signal with opposite phase, which prevents some interferences.


I think this is why Arnold said "take advantagge of most of the benedifts of a balanced input "


The advantage of the output with the opposite polarity is that it effectively doubles the signal voltage. that is applied to the input as compared to not having an output with an opposite phase. All  other things being equal, this can improve the SNR by 6 dB.

Some so-called balanced outputs don't provide the opposite polarity otuput, but do provide a terminal with the same source impedance as the active output. This is called "impedance balancing".  This involves having an jack with the additional terminal, and a resistor connected to signal ground.  This can provide some fairly minimal benefit as compared to replacing the resistor with a direct connection.

Simply connecting one of the two balanced inputs to signal ground on the source equipment can provide a large benefit (in addition to the usual signal connection), limited only by the size fot he problem and the common mode rejection of the input.  I've done this while doing performance measurements of consumer audio gear with only unbalanced outputs, and obtained an obsevered benefit in the range of 10-20 dB.



Quote
After thinking more about it I think that in general Arnold is right (apologies to Bullit for misleading), with the following caveats:

1. I am not sure how big is the most, in other words, how much of SNR improvement one gets from such "fake" balanced connection compared to a true balanced connection.


This benefit is always dependent on each particular sitaution.  There may be no benefit at all. Generally, the worse the grounding problem, the greater the benefit, right up until the noise introduced by the grounding problem exceeds the common mode dynamic range of the balanced input. Transformer-coupled balanced input have common mode dynamic range on the order of 100s or even 1000s of volts. Transformerless balanced inputs have common mode dynamic range in the 5-20 volt range.  I've seen household grounding problems destroy transformerless inputs, or at least not provide enough benefit to be worth while.


Quote
2. I am not sure if the concept of chassis ground in a computer is equivalent to the chassis ground in audio gear. I have a feeling (but not knowledge) that in some cases (some computers, some soundcards), connecting chassis ground to the "fake" balanced connection could make thing worse.


I've enever seen using a "fake" balanced connection provide zero benefit. Grounding problems in equipment are closely realted no matter what kind of equipment it is, whether audio gear or comptuer gear. So much audio gear has either actual on board comptuers or at least enough digital logic that the distinction between computers and audio gear has been thoroughly blurred.

Quote
3. As I said, in typical home connection, with normal cable lengths and line levels it is highly unlikely that the advantage of balanced connection (fake or real) over unbalanced connectio will be noticeable.



I can quantify the problem and you can determine how noticable it will be.  The noise due to residual grounding problems in a short unbalanced interconnection is often no better than about 90 dB below signals in the 1-2 volt range.  The noise in a comparable balanced connection at standard audio production  signal levels  can be down 120 dB or more.

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #29 –
Quote
What about Y-Splitters? Isn't that just the same thing?
This kind[/u] of adapter cable is very common for connecting regular audio equipment to a computer.  (You'll also need an extension cable or two since the adapter/cable won't reach both speakers.)

One of these adapters[/u] on each speaker will allow you to connect with an RCA plug.  (An unbalanced TS connector will normally work into a balanced TRS input.)

There 2 kinds of Y-Adapters...  A "regular" Y-adapter can "split" the signal so you can use two different amps, or something like that...  I had a video-monitor with little built-in speakers, and I used a Y-adapter to hook-up my the regular computer-speakers too...    You want a Y-Adapter that splits-out the left & right channels to separate connectors.  You probably won't find an adapter/cable with the exact connectors you need on both ends, and that's why you'll probably need more than one of adapter.




Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #30 –
So what's the difference between a balanced and unbalanced output? How is the soundboard designed and built differently?

I don't see what the big deal is. Can't you just put in some kind of adapter like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balun to convert an unbalanced into a balanced output.

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #31 –
Yes...  You can use a transformer/balun or an active (solid state) device.  But, you probably don't need to.  Check the specs to confirm this, but the Behringer speaker is probably designed to take both balanced & unbalanced inputs.

It's "difficult" to make a good audio transformer that goes from 20-20kHz.  Sometimes it's a good engineering "trade-off" to use a transformer on a microphone input.    Otherwise, I'd like to avoid (audio)  transformers wherever possible!!!!

You can build a solid-state unbalanced-to-balanced converter that goes from 0Hz (DC) to 100kHz or more.  But, any active circuitry adds some noise, so it's nice if you can avoid any "extra" circuitry, and it's nice to avoid the extra input/output connectors that can go bad or come loose, etc.

Quote
So what's the difference between a balanced and unbalanced output? How is the soundboard designed and built differently?
  With a regular unbalanced connections, you have one "signal" wire and one ground.  The difference-voltage between the signal & ground/shield wires gets amplified.  Any noise-current in the ground wire (i.e. from a ground loop) also makes a "difference" voltage and it get's amplified.

With balanced connections you have two signal wires with opposite "push-pull" signals on each  wire.  A balanced output requires two "hot" signal-outputs, sending-out opposite-phase signals. 

A balanced input requires two input-signal connections.  The signal difference gets picked-up and amplified.    Since noise (i.e. hum) gets picked-up equally in both signal wires, there is no difference in the noise signal and the noise does not get amplified at the input-end.  And, if there's any noise/current in the ground line,  it does not get amplified, since the amp input is only "looking at" the difference between the two signal lines.


If you run an unbalanced line into a balanced input, you can ground one of the signal-inputs* and the (now unbalanced) input still sees the difference signal between the grounded input and the signal wire...  and everything works...  You just don't get the common-mode  noise rejection (or ground-loop rejection) that you get with true balanced connections. 


*  When you plug a TS plug into a TRS input jack, the "unused" input-connection gets grounded to the sleeve.  It's usually OK to ground a balanced input, but you have to be careful grounding outputs, and you should always check the owner's manual before plugging a TS plug into a TRS output.

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #32 –
So in this case the adapter for unbalanced to balanced offers no benefit for noise cancellation.

From what you're explaining to me, a balanced cable has two signal wires and one ground wire. The speaker then determines what's the signal and what's the noise by playing the difference between the two signal wires. What role does the ground cable play in noise reduction?

I checked out blue jean cable and they sell quad balanced cable. Uses four signal wires and a ground then?

Slightly off topic, but these sound cards with balanced outputs, I notice that alot use ASIO drivers. I'm not sure what that means for regular computer use. Is gaming possible with that? Under what conditions would ASIO not work?
 

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #33 –
Quote from: Bullit on
From what you're explaining to me, a balanced cable has two signal wires and one ground wire.


Yes.

Quote
The speaker then determines what's the signal and what's the noise by playing the difference between the two signal wires.


Yes.

Quote
What role does the ground cable play in noise reduction?


Theoreticaslly speaking the ground wire has no role in noise reduction. It is usually connected to some kind of braided or twisted or foil or conductive plastic shield. The shield is usually relatively unimportant with normal audio cables that are driven with low impedance sources.

What the ground wire does is make sure that the chassis ground is about the same at both ends of the cable. This can be a safety issue, and it can also be a circuit integrity issue.

Quote
I checked out blue jean cable and they sell quad balanced cable. Uses four signal wires and a ground then?


This is called quad core cable.

The 4 signal wires are used in pairs.  The 4 signal wires are twisted around each other and every other one is connected together at both ends. So it is electrically like a regular balanced able.

Quad core cable is an alleged further refinement that almost everybody does without and has no sense of loss.  It is claimed by some that quad core can improve the rejection of some kinds of outside interferance. It also comes close to doubling the capacitance of the cable which can be a problem. It costs more money, it makes terminating the cable more work,  and it makes the cable stiffer, all other things being equal. 

Quote
Slightly off topic, but these sound cards with balanced outputs, I notice that alot use ASIO drivers. I'm not sure what that means for regular computer use. Is gaming possible with that? Under what conditions would ASIO not work?


ASIO is a software interface protocol that is used between some audio programs and some device drivers.  It is designed to provide reduced latency, which is the time delay for a signal to get through the driver and to the program or vice versa. ASIO is more of interest to people doing audio production where they listen to previously recorded tracks while they record new tracks. It does not offer a big advantage for just playing music or recording a live performance.

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #34 –
Quote from: pawelq on
Quote from: Seeking_Lossless on
Don't underestimate Behringer just because they're manufactured in China. I think most of product in the market now is made from China because the labour cost there are very, very cheap. And not too mention the main facility of Behringer which is for R&D, factory etc. Behringer City is located at China. I'm no expert but many expert review Truth B3030A sound are very and can match some of $1000 Adam's.


I checked my A7s and they are described as "designed and tested by Adam, Berlin, Germany", but I can't find a "made in" label. Which makes me think that they are made in China (or other place that is not cool from the marketing point of view).

Usually there are made in china label at the back or at the box. Even my Lexicon Lamda also made in China.

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #35 –
Quote from: Seeking_Lossless on
Don't underestimate Behringer just because they're manufactured in China. I think most of product in the market now is made from China because the labour cost there are very, very cheap. And not too mention the main facility of Behringer which is for R&D, factory etc. Behringer City is located at China. I'm no expert but many expert review Truth B3030A sound are very and can match some of $1000 Adam's.


A key point, but a misleading statement about labor costs. China is not the only sources of low cost labor in the world, and not always the source of the lowest cost labor. Even if it is today, it won't be that way long because China is developing rapidly and labor costs are climbing rapidly. The money paid to the workers is only part of the cost of labor in producing goods. Many factories in China are little islands of the 21st century in the middle of an 18th century landscape. The factory has to provide its own infrastructure and even sometimes house the workers. If you build a factory in Detroit, the sewer, the water, the electricity, the roads are already there. The workers show up driving their own cars. In many places in China (and Mexico and the Phillipines, and even other parts of the US...) the factory owner has to provide that all for himself and the labor shows up walking or on bicycles, which means that they can't possibly drive in every day from 50 miles away on a superhighway.

Just about *everthing* technical and modern has content that is made in China. For example, almost all of the  very few factories that make ceramic magnets for speakers are in China. The speaker driver might be assembled in Munich, or Mexico or Los Angeles, but many of the parts like crossover caps probably come from China.

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #36 –
You got many points there, though i can understand the skeptic of people out there about made in China product due to tons amount of fake and imitation item manufactured from there especially in music instrument gear.

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #37 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
When you plug a TS plug into a TRS input jack, the "unused" input-connection gets grounded to the sleeve.  It's usually OK to ground a balanced input, but you have to be careful grounding outputs, and you should always check the owner's manual before plugging a TS plug into a TRS output.


Virtually every line level output very intentionally has a resistor in series with it. The resistor has a number of fictions, one of which is ensuring stability with long cables. The resistor is large enough to eliminate the possibility of a short circuit load for the active circuitry.  Furthermore, the circuit driving it almost always has some kind of short circuit protection.

There is very little chance of damaging a balanced output by shorting either active terminal. Any piece of equipment that might be damaged is arguably badly designed.

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #38 –
Quote from: Seeking_Lossless on
You got many points there, though i can understand the skeptic of people out there about made in China product due to tons amount of fake and imitation item manufactured from there especially in music instrument gear.


The fake products may or may not be knowingly produced by the Chinese.  They are primarily contract manufacturers, and do what they are told to do. That is the nature of their business.  Legally, its the people who import and sell the fake product that mostly get prosecuted.  I think there is quite a bit of justice there. The Chinese still have a long way to go, but they seem to be well on their way. I suspect that legitmate product is the vast majority of what they do.

In the end fake product is all about IP. The key to getting people to respect IP is for them to have a lot of  their own IP at stake. It is happening in China, but people have to go through a goodly number of inermediate stages to get there.  A country doesn't wake up one morning with enough IP to be interested in agressively protecting it. They have to first build an infrastructure for developing IP which presumes sufficient experience with the respective arts and sciences. That experience base make take a few generations to develop to the point where it is strong enough to demand protection.

The US was  were in business (mostly as a colony) for at least 150 years before the U.S. Patent system issued its first patetnt in 1790.  "Patents in the modern sense originated in 1474, when the Republic of Venice enacted a decree that new and inventive devices, once put into practice, had to be communicated to the Republic to obtain the right to prevent others from using them." (Wikipedia).  As a colony we were legally enjoined from making our own manufactured goods such as shovels. History says that local craftsmen broke that law with impunity. 

So arguably, China is following in our footsteps in terms of working at their own rate in their own time to develop to the point where they agressively legally protect IP.

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #39 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
ASIO is a software interface protocol that is used between some audio programs and some device drivers.  It is designed to provide reduced latency, which is the time delay for a signal to get through the driver and to the program or vice versa. ASIO is more of interest to people doing audio production where they listen to previously recorded tracks while they record new tracks. It does not offer a big advantage for just playing music or recording a live performance.


In some cases there may be an advantage of using ASIO. ASIO typically is not affected by system mixer/volume control. Thanks to this, I can hit mute on my keyboard and all sounds in the system are silenced except foobar which has been told to use ASIO drivers. In this way I can listen to music while browsing the internet and no annoying ad or movie on a webpage will interrupt the music.

Now, the proper way to achieve this is in Vista or 7 is WASAPI exclusive mode, but I never got it to work properly for me. I did not spend much time on getting it to work though, because ASIO does the job for me.  The disadvantage is that if I have a webpage open with sound playing or ready to play (e.g., a youtube movie, or an ad with sound) and I attempt to start playback in fooboar, it won't start until I close that page.

Soundcards that come with ASIO drivers also come with "normal" (DirectSound) drivers, so games and other applications that do not support ASIO have no problem accessing them.


Quote from: Seeking_Lossless on
Usually there are made in china label at the back or at the box. Even my Lexicon Lamda also made in China.


Yeah, but there is no "made in" label on the back, only "designed and tested by", and the box are at the bottom of a pile of other boxes. I am not so curious about that to dig through that pile :-)



Ceterum censeo, there should be an "%is_stop_after_current%".

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #40 –
Hopefully it's one of the higher quality products made in China. Most Chinese products are pretty bad. They look good, they function, but the materials used are weak and brittle.

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #41 –
Quote from: Bullit on
Hopefully it's one of the higher quality products made in China. Most Chinese products are pretty bad. They look good, they function, but the materials used are weak and brittle.


You can generalize like that. It's more about quality control standards applied by the companies for which the products are mode, not about where it was made.

By the way, I just looked around, and my external soundcard, keyboard, mouse, router, printer/scanner/copier, netbook, motherboard, cable modem and mp3 player, were all made in China. None of them broke so far (and some of them are not so new anymore), none looks or feels weak or brittle. And I even did not look inside the computer, nor I went out of the room.
Ceterum censeo, there should be an "%is_stop_after_current%".

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #42 –
Quote from: pawelq on
Quote from: Bullit on
Hopefully it's one of the higher quality products made in China. Most Chinese products are pretty bad. They look good, they function, but the materials used are weak and brittle.


You can generalize like that. It's more about quality control standards applied by the companies for which the products are mode, not about where it was made.


That's true, but the Chinese want to make a profit off anything. It's their current culture, much like the west was when it was industrialized. Quality control and regulation is so bad in china that 1 in 10 meals is cooked with reused cooking oil. From the sewer. You know how you're not supposed to flush cooking oil down the toilet? This is why:



It accumulates.

This is what happens in China: http://www.triplepundit.com/2010/09/cookin...buying-organic/

And let's not discuss lead tainted toys, melamine in children's milk, antifreeze in toothpase, pork dumplings made of cardboard filling.... and other quality control horrors that China's suffering from.

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #43 –
Quote from: Bullit on
And let's not discuss lead tainted toys, melamine in children's milk, antifreeze in toothpase, pork dumplings made of cardboard filling.... and other quality control horrors that China's suffering from.


That's what I was trying to say, it's about quality control level that is used. M-Audio, or Asus, o Microsoft probably apply different QC level to their China factories than a Chinese company that produces children's milk or toys for China market or for comapnies abroad that do not care so much about QC. Therefore, people all over the world who buy items produced in China by major companies do not see such problems too often.

More often I see quality problems with items I buy for my work from a small US company that with items produced in China for major world-wide companies.
Ceterum censeo, there should be an "%is_stop_after_current%".

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #44 –
Quote from: Bullit on
That's true, but the Chinese want to make a profit off anything. It's their current culture, much like the west was when it was industrialized. Quality control and regulation is so bad in china that 1 in 10 meals is cooked with reused cooking oil. From the sewer. You know how you're not supposed to flush cooking oil down the toilet? This is why:



It accumulates.

This is what happens in China: http://www.triplepundit.com/2010/09/cookin...buying-organic/

There should really be a TOS8 clause about other types of claims even if they're not audio-related. There are virtually no trustworthy news sources that are claiming that, only blog posts, and not the most reliables at that. The closest to it I've found is this in the NYT. Which doesn't claim that, and which you can see how that story would have been transmogrified into internet lore and repeated hundreds of times by bloggers (there's the 1 in 10 claim, but only referred to recycled oil, and the sewage part is another thing, and it's pure speculation that it happened in some cases.)

By the way, I would say iPods and Apple hardware in general is very well made. In fact, isn't the whole Apple thing is that it's very pretty stuff? My Klipsch speakers are also made in China. If there was a reason not to buy Chinese is cause of the generally poor condition of their workers, instead of thinking that made in China products are automatically of lesser quality.

Stereo speakers with TRS input. Bang for buck?

Reply #45 –
I haven't posted here in a long time, but kudos to Andy for his last post. Spot on.