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Topic: How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !? (Read 40702 times) previous topic - next topic
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How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

*** IF I HAVE ADDED THIS TOPIC TO A WRONG SECTION.. IM VERY VERY SORRY !! Please move it to an appropriate one ! ***

Hello guys !
I've been searching for a forum where I could ask this question... How to find out if a mp3 file is a rip or original?
Today many pirats find different way to steal music and to offer it like an original just to show off..

They download some streaming music in 96kbps... 192kbps.. and convert it to 320kbps with some software.. and the file size becomes almost the same like the original so its impossible to say which one is original..

Well you'd say.. dude are you crazy.. ofcourse there's a difference.. yea I know.. from 96kbps to 320kbps there is a slight difference in the quality, but from 192kbps to 320kbps there is almost no difference for me and for my stereo system.. whatever..

I've been checking many of the mp3 files that I have and I discovered that when I look the info of the file (using Winamp) I see that there is a Format info section ... and in this Format Info section I see some differences between 2 "identical" tracks

        This pic is a screenshot of a File info of a REAL track.. bought from beatport

Now I'll give you 2 "identical tracks" .. 1 Original and 1 Fake

<Links removed (TOS #9)>



As you can see there is a size difference between the 2 tracks.. the REAL track is larger than the FAKE (but the difference is not so shocking)

Also there is a difference in the  Format Info window.. take a look please



1. The first thing that I see is that there is a difference in the line "Header found at: X bytes"  29716 bytes for the real and 2048 bytes for the fake track .. Is this one of the components to guess that a mp3 file is a rip/fake ?

2. The second thing that I see is that there is a missing line in the fake/rip mp3 file : "Enc Delay: 576, Zero Padding: 1598" (REAL) ..  Is this another component to guess that a mp3 file is a rip/fake ?

3. The third thing that I see is that there is a difference in the quality line :  "320kbps, 18018 frames" (REAL) | "320kbps, approx. 2248 frames" (FAKE) .. Is this another component to guess that a mp3 file is a rip/fake ?

4. The fourth thing that I see is that there is a difference in the line : "44100 Hz Stereo" (REAL)  |  "44100 Hz Joint Stereo" (FAKE)

My question about 4. is :
What's the difference between Joint Stereo and Stereo. And do all producers make their tracks in Stereo or in Joint Stereo ?


Another thing.. If I dont have an original mp3 file.. Can I say that a mp3 file is a fake/rip when is has low bytes in line "Header found at:" (under 10000)

Do all REAL tracks have this line in the File info "Enc delay: XXX, Zero Padding: XXXX"

What's your method to find out if a track is real or not ? maybe there is a software about that ? Im thinking of Nero Wave Editor but I'm not sure how to find out if a track is fake ..

I would be really happy, if someone enlighten me on this problem.. (yea its a problem for me)

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #1 –
None of those things will help you figure out if the file was encoded from CD or from another lossy file.  Theres really no good way to check for sure.

Most Mp3s use a combination of joint stereo and L/R stereo since its the most efficient and generally best quality.  That field probably just tells you if the track uses any JS at all.  If no JS is used it probably means that either a crappy encoder was used, or the person doing the rip misconfigured a good encoder to work less well for whatever reason.

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #2 –
Quote from: saratoga on
None of those things will help you figure out if the file was encoded from CD or from another lossy file.  Theres really no good way to check for sure.

Most Mp3s use a combination of joint stereo and L/R stereo since its the most efficient and generally best quality.  That field probably just tells you if the track uses any JS at all.  If no JS is used it probably means that either a crappy encoder was used, or the person doing the rip misconfigured a good encoder to work less well for whatever reason.



So.. for example if someone downloads an audio clip from youtube and reconvert it to 320kbps mp3 .. there's no way to prove that it is a RIP ?

*EDIT*:And like I said .. ALL ORIGINAL tracks that I've checked have BIG "Header found at : X bytes"

When I say big I mean it.. examples.. 473113 bytes, 293698 bytes and so on.. only the ripped tracks have so LOW "Header found at:"

*EDIT2* : And Believe me there is no mp3 converter that can make the "Header found at: " so big.. I've used 2 converters.. one of them makes it 33 bytes.. the other 1781 bytes.. so I think this is one way to prove it.

*EDIT3* : Its obvious that one of the tracks is fake.. Im asking you to download them .. listen to them and tell me what do you think about the quality ... !

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: ColdRedSnappy on
So.. for example if someone downloads an audio clip from youtube and reconvert it to 320kbps mp3 .. there's no way to prove that it is a RIP ?


Well you can ask them, or rip the track directly using the exact settings you believe they used and see if its different.  Or if its a really bad transcode you might be able to tell by listening. 

Quote from: ColdRedSnappy on
*EDIT2* : And Believe me there is no mp3 converter that can make the "Header found at: " so big.. I've used 2 converters.. one of them makes it 33 bytes.. the other 1781 bytes.. so I think this is one way to prove it.


I think thats just the size of the ID3 tag, which really has nothing to do with the file itself.  Edit the tags and that number will randomly change.  It sounds like you just stripped the id3 tags when you converted the file.
 

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: saratoga on
Quote from: ColdRedSnappy on
So.. for example if someone downloads an audio clip from youtube and reconvert it to 320kbps mp3 .. there's no way to prove that it is a RIP ?


Well you can ask them, or rip the track directly using the exact settings you believe they used and see if its different.  Or if its a really bad transcode you might be able to tell by listening. 

Quote from: ColdRedSnappy on
*EDIT2* : And Believe me there is no mp3 converter that can make the "Header found at: " so big.. I've used 2 converters.. one of them makes it 33 bytes.. the other 1781 bytes.. so I think this is one way to prove it.


I think thats just the size of the ID3 tag, which really has nothing to do with the file itself.  Edit the tags and that number will randomly change.  It sounds like you just stripped the id3 tags when you converted the file.


Actually I've got the original on 28th of March. But I found a forum where it was posted on 15th of March.. and I was amazed... I've downloaded the track and I was shocked from what I saw .. I didnt touch the ID3 tags at all..
I actually edited the original track's ID3 tags to be the same like the "FAKE" so the comparison can be more accurate.

Now I edited the fake tracks ID3 tags.. and I type something to all lines.. the "Header found at" didnt change even with 1 byte

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #5 –
Insert a JPEG into the ID3 tag and see if it changes.

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: saratoga on
Insert a JPEG into the ID3 tag and see if it changes.


Its still the same .. It doesn't change.. You can download the tracks and to try it .. Im telling you... this is a possible way to find out if a track is fake or not.. with the pics from the 1st post... I just need someone to prove it

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #7 –
Just to be clear, the Mp3 encoder has no idea what the source of a track is, so theres no way it can hide that information in the file (since it doesn't have it).  You're just seeing differences in tag and file stream layout, which are normal and random between programs.

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #8 –
Ok, then.. I can say the following thing..
All my REAL tracks (bought from websites) have such detailed Format info.. only the fake/rip tracks doesnt have it..
So what does this mean ?

Also there is a way or method to prove almost everything on this world.. why its not possible to say which mp3 file is real or fake !? Im sure that there is a software that can prove that in some way ... I just dont know its name

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: ColdRedSnappy on
Also there is a way or method to prove almost everything on this world.. why its not possible to say which mp3 file is real or fake !? Im sure that there is a software that can prove that in some way


What is the point of asking a question on the forum if, after the question has been answered (no way to tell), after it has been expained to you why there is no way, you still keep saying "there must be a way"? If you know better, why do you keep asking?
Ceterum censeo, there should be an "%is_stop_after_current%".

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: pawelq on
Quote from: ColdRedSnappy on
Also there is a way or method to prove almost everything on this world.. why its not possible to say which mp3 file is real or fake !? Im sure that there is a software that can prove that in some way


What is the point of asking a question on the forum if, after the question has been answered (no way to tell), after it has been expained to you why there is no way, you still keep saying "there must be a way"? If you know better, why do you keep asking?



Because you cannot say White to the Black


How do you know the answer is NO ?? Someone tested it ?? Prove it ?

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #11 –
You're completely naive to think that what you're presenting is either white or black as opposed to being a shade of gray.

All I have to say is that if you're going to obtain your music illegally, you shouldn't have any expectations of legitimacy.

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #12 –
Any mp3 to mp3 transcode I have ever heard was unfortunately very easy to spot by listening. The artifacts are not subtle even if 320 is used.

Mp3 from other sources I have never tested. AAC from mp3 is not terrible for a portable or car though,at least in my opinion.

I don.t think there is any automated way of detecting them though.

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: ColdRedSnappy on
How do you know the answer is NO ?? Someone tested it ?? Prove it ?

Perhaps nobody here is interested in proving it. Perhaps people here all encode their own files from CD or buy their mp3s from reputable sources.

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #14 –
There are really only two ways to be pretty certain that a high-bitrate (256kbps+) MP3 is an 'original' encode of the lossless source, and not just a high-bitrate (but lower quality!) transcode of a lower bitrate MP3/AAC file.

1.) You do the MP3 encoding yourself from the lossless WAV/FLAC/TAK/ALAC file(s)

2.) You PURCHASE the MP3 from a known reputable site, like Amazon.COM or Rhapsody.


Other than that, it's a crapshoot on the actual quality if you choose to download MP3s from a torrent site that is known for illegal sharing.

Even the best software that some use to try to determine whether an MP3 is a transcode from a lesser bitrate just guesses, and can easily be fooled if you know how to do it.

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: WonderSlug on
Even the best software that some use to try to determine whether an MP3 is a transcode from a lesser bitrate just guesses, and can easily be fooled if you know how to do it.

I find it interesting you should say this.  After reading scores of posts here asking how to identify lossy-lossy transcodes, I've never heard of any such software.

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: WonderSlug on
Even the best software that some use to try to determine whether an MP3 is a transcode from a lesser bitrate just guesses, and can easily be fooled if you know how to do it.

I find it interesting you should say this.  After reading scores of posts here asking how to identify lossy-lossy transcodes, I've never heard of any such software.


I'm talking about Tau Analyzer, which has been mentioned here a handful of times whenever a similar question to the OP's pops up.

Others try to use spectral or frequency analysis graphs since MP3s at various -V encoding levels have different frequency cutoffs by default.

All of these can be easily defeated/fooled if one knows what they are doing.

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #17 –
The only use of TauAnalyzer that I've ever seen/used has been to identify if a losslessly encoded file was sourced from a lossy file.  Checking their website now ...

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: WonderSlug on
I'm talking about Tau Analyzer, which has been mentioned here a handful of times whenever a similar question to the OP's pops up.
Feed the program an mp3 and it will tell you it's mpeg; no surprises there.  It was never designed to do this.  For what the OP is asking it's completely useless.

Quote from: WonderSlug on
Others try to use spectral or frequency analysis graphs since MP3s at various -V encoding levels have different frequency cutoffs by default.
Some encoders don't encode anything above 16kHz by default, regardless of the bitrate.  With encoders that do, some people like to specify a lowpass.

Quote from: WonderSlug on
All of these can be easily defeated/fooled if one knows what they are doing.
Excellent point, though I would add that we can't just assume that people only use Lame to encode original sources (let alone use Lame's defaults).  It's also quite possible that people may want to employ particular settings without any dishonest intent; though I would suggest that those who upload copyrighted material without the expressed consent of the copyright holder do in fact have dishonest intentions.

EDIT: Tahnru was faster.

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #19 –
So there isnt at least 1 thing that draws the line between fake and original 

What a pity for the producers

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #20 –
How is this any worse for "the producers"?  To me this seems like it actually helps since those interested in making sure they have a legitimate mp3 might be more likely to buy rather than steal.

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: ColdRedSnappy on
So there isnt at least 1 thing that draws the line between fake and original 

What a pity for the producers


What studio produces MP3's as its only final product, without offering a lossless version (CD, FLAC download)?  I get the feeling that the definitions of 'fake' and 'original' are ill-defined for this discussion.

Can we agree on the following?
  • Fake = MP3's transcoded from other MP3's
  • Original = Single generation MP3's created from a lossless source
  • Producers = Don't care about file sharing MP3's since they are producing CDs or lossless files.

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #22 –
Quote
How to find out if a mp3 file is a rip or original?
Today many pirats find different way to steal music and to offer it like an original just to show off..

No need to worry! Someone who disapproved of piracy as much as your wording suggests would never encounter files of unknown origin.

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Tahnru on
Fake = MP3's transcoded from other MP3's

I think, in the context suggested by the TC, he's only referring to "fake" MP3's as MP3's that were encoded first at a low bitrate, and then re-encoded at a higher bitrate to fake having high quality. He's not extending his definition of "fake" to include transcoding as a whole.

How to find out if a mp3 is a rip or original !?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: WonderSlug on
Others try to use spectral or frequency analysis graphs since MP3s at various -V encoding levels have different frequency cutoffs by default.
Some encoders don't encode anything above 16kHz by default, regardless of the bitrate.  With encoders that do, some people like to specify a lowpass.

While it's somewhat true that you MAY be able (very hard though) to identify an mp3-encoding (or perhaps any other lossy encoding), it would be impossible to identify the artifacts of TWO lossy encodings on the same material. Forget it! Discussions in the past here where mp3-encodings have been identified are on material released on CD, but that's about it. I don't even think you can reliably tell what bitrate was used.
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P