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Topic: Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server (Read 11586 times) previous topic - next topic
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Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Hi folks,

I am planning to backup my entire audio cd collection (3500cds) to a nas so I am looking for some advice.

I have read that EAC is supposed to be the best software out there for the job  (I want to keep the cds as uncompressed wav files) but I would like to know if someone has already tried the configuration I am going to set-up and if there are any hints.

The configuration I thought about is:

- Raid6 gigabit nas 5TB (4TB available) with all cds ripped with EAC.
  This NAS is using twonkymedia that seems to be the best DLNA server available.
- PS3 used as DLNA client
- PS3 optical out connected to an external digital pre (now meridian 565z3) or dac

I would like to know if:

- is possibile to use a certain standard to keep info about album/track/artist etc etc that is compatibile with PS3 dlna client search features ?
- is it possibile to get album picture displayed in dlna client ?

I am asking because I would like to know exactly how to do before doing the ripping (since one cd is about 30" ripping I dont want to repeat the operation)

Thanks in advance for the help

--
Alberto Fornito

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #1 –
EAC used to be the best, but many people now prefer dbpoweramp. Also, dbpoweramp can tag wav files, but I don't think that EAC can.

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #2 –
I have read that dbpoweramp may be better in the aspect of ripping time performance as maybe it is developed as multicore application (I dont care about ripping speed - my target is only absolute quality, I dont mind 30" ripping time) but the question (as I dont know DLNA protocol details) is how the DLNA client can recognize and display metadata (maybe dir/file naming conventions, adding other special purpose files to the dir, etc etc) in order to have also a searching facility that is really a necessity when browsing a big cd collection.

So I am asking if anyone has experience in using Sony PS3 to browse a _BIG_ external archive of uncompressed Wav files as DLNA client (that of course is not the main purpose of a gaming console, normally the library is supposed to be low quality compressed MP3 or other lossy codecs).

Best Regards,

--
Alberto Fornito

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #3 –
Some thoughts:

- Why wav? easier to handle tags with something like flac or wavpack
- you could probably get a cheaper system building a computer yourself and much more flexibility
- Check out the wiki for info on how to setup EAC correctly.

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #4 –
- Wav because is the native CD format, I am replacing access to my cd library with a nas and I want to have the best and more compatibile format available (no compression, even lossless). I know there are codecs that convert runtime to linear uncompressed PCM but I still prefer no compression at all (more space used but less computational time required and full compatibility with virtually every device).
- Build up a pc with raid 5(5+spare, 6) card and hard disks is not much more economic than buying a raid system.
Considering that after ripping the CDs I will keep only the NAS for playing music I would like to have a thing fully reliable (QNAP 509-Pro has 2 networking gigabit cards, two operating systems fail-safe, etc etc).
- I have read EAC "guide" but again the question is just if anyone has tried with the configuration above (that I know is far from the typical situation) to get the most of metadata availabe even in WAV ripping, that is my case, specially with a PS3 used as client (I would like to have the best of both worlds, uncompressed perfect music and metadata display and search with album pictures typical of MP3 ripped CDs :-) )

Thanks

--
Alberto Fornito

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #5 –
Quote from: afornito on
less computational time required

When using a fast decoding compressor like FLAC or TAK the computational time required is so small as to be insignificant.  This would be like arguing that the northern hemisphere should be warmest in January.
Yes the Earth is closest to the sun then, but this is such a minor issue compared to the larger factor, being the tilt of the axis.

If you're so concerned about reliability of your music server, there are better options than RAID5.  With large disk sizes, you run into the very real statistical conundrum where the RAID5 rebuild time is large enough to put your entire set at risk due to the probability of a second drive failure during rebuild.
Creature of habit.

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #6 –
Quote from: afornito on
I would like to have the best of both worlds, uncompressed perfect music and metadata display and search with album pictures typical of MP3 ripped CDs :-)

The answer to best of both worlds ARE indeed: FLAC. It's lightweight, compresses fairly good and decodes with very little CPU power (in contrary to other formats like Monkeys Audio APE). Also remember that lossless are indeed lossless - you don't loose one bit. Also WAV is NOT the native format of CD - It's a container format, created by Microsoft, containing PCM audio.

Why use 30 mins on each CD, when you can use <5 mins? EAC installation has AccurateRip built-in today. My recommendation is that you use Burst mode to rip with (keeping in mind, that there's no security on this mode), and reads the log if all tracks are ripped accurately. If a disc is NOT ripped accurately, I usually put it aside to later rip it in any secure mode until I get an accurate rip. If a disc is not in AR database, I usually use test/copy in burst mode with different drives.

Edit/add: Instead of using RAID security, my recommendation is to have a backup completely separated from the NAS. It could be a set of removable USB HDD's, a mirror NAS or even an online remote backup service.
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #7 –
I have chosen Wav format to be sure that in future I can play the library in a format that is standard and will not change; space occupied and ripping time is _not_ a problem.
I want to make the ripping only ONCE and Wav gives me (maybe only psicologically) the best way to do it without any compatibility or upgrading of the codec algorithm issues.
It gives also an istant access to the tracks by any audio program to edit and burn instant cds, just in case.
By the way qnap 509 pro can use also raid6 that allows 2 disks to be offline if I remember well ...
Now the only issue that may arise is the metadata associated with the track/album, can I get the info processed by some criteria by DLNA server and displayed by DLNA client accordingly ?
Of course this is just a help in find the album/track, I still can use the library without much of the data typically displayed but I am wondering if I can have a good presentation similar to the MP3 encoded in the internal PS3 hard disk ...

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #8 –
In this case, why not rip to WAV / CUE pairing so that the tagging information can be stored in the CUE file?

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #9 –
Quote from: afornito on
I have chosen Wav format to be sure that in future I can play the library in a format that is standard and will not change; space occupied and ripping time is _not_ a problem.

Even IF the almost de facto standard FLAC would change to another lossless format, it's easy to convert between them, and does not involve re-ripping everything again - Without losing anything. Using foobar2000 you will even keep the tags between files without doing anything!

Quote from: afornito on
It gives also an istant access to the tracks by any audio program to edit and burn instant cds, just in case.

Most audio programs already support FLAC out of the box. foobar2000 also lets you write CD's from lossless files.
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #10 –
Yes, RAID6 is more secure than RAID5, and is more likely to rebuild successfully if your drives are on the upswing part of the bathtub curve.  If you have a need for RAID, 6 is a wise upgrade IMHO.

That being said, RAID solves a problem you likely do not have.  For the same amount of money, I would invest in a cheaper NAS box and an offsite backup, perhaps at your parent's house, your school, or your place of employment.  Many common failure models will not be prevented by single-location RAID.  RAID = uptime, not backup. 

On the FLAC/WAV debate - again I think you are preparing for an unlikely problem and failing to prepare adequately for a more likely problem.  You are more likely to have your RAID controller fail and be unable to access your array (due to unavailability of identical hardware) than you are to have FLAC fail to be available.
Third point, the hardware/software compatibility of WAV + metadata is likely lower than the hardware/software compatibility of FLAC.  While you're right WAV is commonly supported, WAV + metadata is not.

Only you know if you "need" WAV, and if you do, you do.  I just rather suspect you don't.
Creature of habit.

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #11 –
I have some doubts about using WAV and DNLA.
Due to a lack of standards, tagging in WAV is a mess and compatibility between different programs low. See: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/WAV.htm

If you wish to stick to WAV make sure you have a well defined file structure and all the files has meaningful names. Of course both the DNLA server and the client must be able to browse by file structure.
I’m afraid that browsing the file structure is the only way to go in case of WAV.

If you have a Windows PC, you can easily test it.
Rip a couple of CDs to WAV, download a trial version of Twonky (or  put media sharing on  as Windows is DNLA compliant) and see how the files are rendered on the PS3.

RIAD protects you against HD failure, not against theft, fire or dropping the unit.
I prefer remote replication.

I haven’t the slightest idea about the jitter content of the PS3 digital out.
It would be a nasty paradox if you go for the purest audio format, even forsake the comfort of tagging to end up with a lousy sound do to a digital out with a high jitter
TheWellTemperedComputer.com

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #12 –
you really need to revisit the format choice. i think using wav will be a HUGE error.  there are many more reasons to use a LOSSLESS codec other than it saves space (...no brainer, especially for 3500 lossless CDs) and all have been mentioned before (tagging, metadata, replaygain, etc.).

i wouldn't hesitate to use FLAC or Wavpack - both are great.
(in the recommendations below i've used flac for reference)

some tips:

* decide on a filesystem & hard drive situation (i would do RAID1/5/6 with 1TB seagate sata drives and an areca hardware raid card)

* create a good directory structure
i use GENRE / ARTIST (Descendents, The) / ARTIST (The Descendents) - (YEAR) ALBUM [TYPE] /

* decide on naming before you rip A SINGLE DISC.
i use for non-various: ARTIST - (YEAR) ALBUM [TYPE] - TRACK# - TRACKNAME
i use for various: VARIOUS - (YEAR) ALBUM [TYPE] - TRACK# - ARTIST - TRACKNAME

* rip to multiple flac + cue and keep logs, etc.
flac settings: (flac --best --verify)
rubyripper (and eac, etc.) can create a ripping log. keep it.
process for replaygain afterwards
(i.e. for dir in *;do cd "$dir";metaflac --add-replay-gain *flac;cd ..;done;) <-- you've just applied the correct replaygain for every disc you've ripped.

* get the tagging/metadata right BEFORE ripping. this will save you time afterwards.
keep names correctly cased after fetching from CDDB. correct the GENRE and YEAR, too.

* create a hash of the directory after you're done.
on linux you'd do another fordo script (or just add it to the one above for a 2in1  )
(i.e. for dir in *;do cd "$dir";cfv -C -t md5 *.flac;cd ..;done)

* after everything is done, set your files read only


just some tips... i've done this before, LOL


later

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #13 –
Quote from: xmixahlx on
i would do RAID1/5/6 with 1TB seagate sata drives and an areca hardware raid card

If you care for your data, don't go Seagate. They were ABOVE great until they bought Maxtor. Now even the old Maxtor disks are branded "Seagate", but they are still crap. I had a 750GB failing miserably recently and I'll never trust them again.

I think WD or maybe Samsung is a better choice, also in terms of silence (Samsung) and durability (WD).
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #14 –
Thanks for the suggestions, I think to have a better idea I must try the combination with a simple PC used as DLNA server and a ripped cd.

Regarding jitter in digital out (toslink only in PS3) I dont know how PS3 is good in this aspect but PS3 is just an initial way of browsing and playing the collection (I use it now for bd/dvd player with a full hd 46" lcd) but if the data is ripped perfectly and PS3 will prove not as good as I need I can replace with a custom pc with a dedicated audio board or another solution, the only good thing is that DLNA is a standard so now my concerining is how to populate the CD library in the best way.

In my final setup digital out will be connected to a custom valves/output transformers DAC and then to valve preamplifier/amplifier (I have many as I am a fan of vintage electronics and hi-efficiency speakers).

Maybe also there is an adapter that takes in the optical out of PS3 and recreates a perfect clock in output (even better in spdif, there are more dacs that have this connection).

For the backup I can use another NAS if the project will prove ok reagarding audio quality (my goal is to have a cd library that performs equal or better to cd quality but with the ease of browsing tracks and album from the tv connected to ps3 or maybe directly from my next tv that will be DLNA compliant).

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #15 –
SPDIF jitter sounds like bullshit. It's zero's and one's, and they will reproduce exactly what intended. Also, don't waste time and money on dedicated sound cards. ANY soundcard that provides bitperfect playback will suit your needs.
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #16 –
Quote from: afornito on
In my final setup digital out will be connected to a custom valves/output transformers DAC and then to valve preamplifier/amplifier (I have many as I am a fan of vintage electronics and hi-efficiency speakers).
With the potentially limited audio bandwidth, added distortion and phase errors likely to be introduced by such a system, you may just as well rip everything to LAME MP3 in VBR at -V3 and be done with it. You're incredibly unlikely to hear any difference between that and lossless using such a setup IMHO.

Cheers, Slipstreem. 

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #17 –
Quote from: odyssey on
SPDIF jitter sounds like bullshit. It's zero's and one's, and they will reproduce exactly what intended. Also, don't waste time and money on dedicated sound cards. ANY soundcard that provides bitperfect playback will suit your needs.


By definition electrical signal transmission is analogue, that's the way electricity works.
In case of SPDIF, the audio signal is send as bits so we are not interested in having the exact analogue signal at the receiver but only in detecting the bits correctly, the logical 1 and 0.
This is a very robust technology, so bit perfect transmission is relatively easy to obtain.
If this wasn't the case, internet banking would be far more exiting.
If bit perfect transmission fails us, it is in general clearly audible because bit flipping translates into clicks and pops.

As we know, digital audio over SPDIF is sending bits at a certain sample rate. This time base is derived from the speed the bit stream is pouring in.
This speed is generated by a clock so fully analogue. Any fluctuation in clock speed is a fluctuation in sample rate, that's what we call jitter. As there is no perfect clock, there will always be some jitter. But if these fluctuations become to high, they will rise above audible treshold. Opinions about the threshold varies, some say that anything below the 200 ns is not audible, others say that depending on the architecture of the DAC in combination with upsampling needs a value as incredibly low as 20 ps.

SPDIF is a stone age protocol, the signal is digital, the time base is fully analogue and therefore sensitive to any disturbances in the analogue domain.

http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/BitPerfectJitter.htm
TheWellTemperedComputer.com

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Slipstreem on
Quote from: afornito on
In my final setup digital out will be connected to a custom valves/output transformers DAC and then to valve preamplifier/amplifier (I have many as I am a fan of vintage electronics and hi-efficiency speakers).
With the potentially limited audio bandwidth, added distortion and phase errors likely to be introduced by such a system, you may just as well rip everything to LAME MP3 in VBR at -V3 and be done with it. You're incredibly unlikely to hear any difference between that and lossless using such a setup IMHO.

Cheers, Slipstreem. 

While I too believe that people who cling to vacuum tubes and transformers are deluded, I also do not believe in overstating the case. Well designed amps and preamps, regardless of the technology, should be capable of excellent audio reproduction, and if someone is willing to accept the size, weight, power consumption, heat production and lower reliability of older technology then I don't have a problem with that.

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #19 –
Quote from: Slipstreem on
Quote from: afornito on
In my final setup digital out will be connected to a custom valves/output transformers DAC and then to valve preamplifier/amplifier (I have many as I am a fan of vintage electronics and hi-efficiency speakers).
With the potentially limited audio bandwidth, added distortion and phase errors likely to be introduced by such a system, you may just as well rip everything to LAME MP3 in VBR at -V3 and be done with it. You're incredibly unlikely to hear any difference between that and lossless using such a setup IMHO.

Cheers, Slipstreem. 


Those words may sound logical but I might suppose you never listened to a setup like the one I am intented to use for listening ... you may have some surprises ... IMHO

In the last years I tried many many audio systems, also thanks to a friend of mine that has was the owner of one of the most important hifi itlaian shops, and I changed my mind regarding audio equipment.

In my opinion the best way to listening to music and enjoy it is still using vinyl discs but at least for CDs I am trying to make a setup more confortable and faster using an external DAC to achieve a more pleasant sounding experience.

Just for information it is almost 20 years that I work in computer/hardware/dsp programming in many fields of application (automation, medicine, etc etc) so I am not a typical fanatic audiophile "believer" and I loved tubes only after having tried and compared against the best solid state electronic available (I worked in team with my friend and I had the chance to listen to a very big number of systems at every price levels)

Regards

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #20 –
Quote from: odyssey on
SPDIF jitter sounds like bullshit. It's zero's and one's, and they will reproduce exactly what intended. Also, don't waste time and money on dedicated sound cards. ANY soundcard that provides bitperfect playback will suit your needs.


Uhm .... jitter in general is not bullshit, there are many efforts to reduce it using different technologies and even proprierary bus with explicit clock information inside.

For what I know redbook standard was not intended to provide a mean to have bitperfect data but instead the purpose was to have a bitstream of data real time (1x) with the minimum amount of errors due to media problems (scratches, etc etc) as this is a realtime stream of data not a cd rom application.

Due to this approach (hide any error and continue) and the common opinion that cd quality "was perfect" and superior to any media previously available it is very common to meet people that think that every cd/transport/dac is almost the same or the influence is only due to suggestion.

My suggestion is to listen and decide for yourself ... IMHO obviusly

Quote from: pdq on
Quote from: Slipstreem on

Quote from: afornito on
In my final setup digital out will be connected to a custom valves/output transformers DAC and then to valve preamplifier/amplifier (I have many as I am a fan of vintage electronics and hi-efficiency speakers).
With the potentially limited audio bandwidth, added distortion and phase errors likely to be introduced by such a system, you may just as well rip everything to LAME MP3 in VBR at -V3 and be done with it. You're incredibly unlikely to hear any difference between that and lossless using such a setup IMHO.

Cheers, Slipstreem. 

While I too believe that people who cling to vacuum tubes and transformers are deluded, I also do not believe in overstating the case. Well designed amps and preamps, regardless of the technology, should be capable of excellent audio reproduction, and if someone is willing to accept the size, weight, power consumption, heat production and lower reliability of older technology then I don't have a problem with that.


I had listened (and owned) several hi-end audio solid state gear so I know what you are talking about but at last I preferred the more real sound of a vintage amp coupled to a pair of hi-efficiency speakers but I must admit that pror to try I never tought that I can prefer vintage gear to modern hi-end ...

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #21 –
I have heard many fine examples of valve amplifiers and I share your opinion that they do sound very nice, but the difference that's audible is entirely down to a lack of faithfulness in terms of reproduction versus a well designed semiconductor amplifier as with vinyl versus CD. I'm not arguing with you though. This is an entirely subjective matter and it's up to you to make whatever choice makes your ears happy at the end of the day.

Cheers, Slipstreem. 

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #22 –
I think that’s the point, digital sources + solid state amps sounds more realistic, vinyl + tube more naturalistic.
A classical combination is the electrostat driven by a valve amp. The electrostat for the transparency, the valve amp to shave of the edges.
TheWellTemperedComputer.com

Wav uncompressed cd library on NAS - DLNA server

Reply #23 –
We are going a little bit OT but ...

My thoughts are that much depends upon your idea about of the word "real".

To me "real" means that when I listen to the record gives me the impression (feeling) to hear something very close to the original (and, of course, one must be used to listen to real live music).

For others "real" may mean something related to the approximation of the original waveform to the sampled and played one.

Regarding natural (I mean not electronic) instruments and voice my opinion is that there is a huge different in rendering them from valves to solid state (with many exceptions by both sides).

Regards