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Topic: pitch range? (Read 7265 times) previous topic - next topic
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pitch range?

You know how people spend thousands of dollars on speakers so they can cover from 20Hz to 20khz?

Where do music in the real world generally end up? Is it only theoretical that sounds can possibly be that low or high? Can real instruments actually go that low or high?
 

pitch range?

Reply #1 –
On a piano, the lowest note is about 27Hz and the highest note is about 4kHz.  However, all instruments have overtones that extend well beyond the fundamental frequency of the note.  Search for "fourier series" for the technical explanation of how overtones work.

pitch range?

Reply #3 –
I believe that church organ has fundamentals at 16 Hz.

A paper measured trumpet with sordin, clarinet and cymbals to have significant output at 100kHz I believe.

-k

pitch range?

Reply #4 –
The music that you hear is not made of pure notes with the fixed frequency for each note (='tone'). Each instrument has a 'timbre', a word that describes the complex frequency contents of each sound you hear for a given instrument (or any sound, for that matter).

As an example, when you play an A on a piano, you hear the ~444Hz note, but also all sorts of lower and higher complex frequencies, the tiniest (but still audible) of them spreading right up to 18Khz or even more! These are often referred to as 'harmonics'. If you cut most of these, the piano sounds muffled. If you supress all of these, you can't even recognize a piano from, say, a cow! 

Only synthesizers are supposed to be able to voice 'pure' tones without harmonics. Even they can't, as perfection doesn't exist.

Harmonics are generated by instruments without any actual limit in frequency! So the range referred to (20Hz-20Khz) doesn't refer to what instruments, voices and noises are able to generate, but to what human hearing is able to hear. The '20-20' are rough/approximative numbers, as this varies a lot and is subject to controversy.

pitch range?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Francksoy-Wizzu on
The '20-20' are rough/approximative numbers, as this varies a lot and is subject to controversy.

I believe that the weight of careful blind-tests show that this topic is most controversial among audiophiles without an AES subscription...

Not to say that any ABX can exclude an audible difference.

-k

pitch range?

Reply #6 –
Back in the LP days one would find very little much below 40Hz.  The reasons for this were purely mechanical.  CD's do not suffer this limitation.  In practice speakers that go down to 30Hz should be find for symphonic music.  For popular music, the lowest note on an electric bass is about 41Hz.  There are pipe organs that go down to 16Hz.  (Maybe lower.  Who knows?)  That would have to be described as profoundly deep bass.  As frequency goes lower the tactile sensation becomes prevalent.  Like an earthquake, it can be felt long before one can actually hear anything shaking.  I don't know what sort of music you like, or how wide your hearing range is. These comments are of a general nature and I hope you find them helpful.

pitch range?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: knutinh on
I believe that the weight of careful blind-tests show that this topic is most controversial among audiophiles without an AES subscription...
Uh?  I don't follow you..?

pitch range?

Reply #8 –
Very few speakers are actually "flat" down to 20Hz.  It usually requires big drivers, big speaker boxes, and big amplifiers to get significant output at 20Hz.  The idea is, if your speaker is only 3dB down at 20Hz, it will be able to handle any real-world bass that you throw at it (assuming it's a well-designed speaker, and not a 20Hz tuned-resonator or something).  A speaker with good 25-19,000Hz response would be quite good too!

Quote
Can real instruments actually go that low or high?
  You can get some idea by experimenting with an equalizer.  While the lowest/highest sliders on an equalizer are not usually located at the 20/20kHz extremes, you can hear the changes when you move the most highest and/or lowest slider.  Equalizers are not "perfect", and the sound is affected outside the selected-band.  Still, you can learn a lot by playing-around with an equalizer!

If your stereo doesn't have an equalizer, your soundcard driver-utility may have one, and most audio editing programs include one.  If you do have an audio editing program, you can experiment with a little more accuracy.  Try a steep 30Hz high-pass filter or a steep 18kHz low-pass filter.  You probably won't hear any difference when you chop-off the extreme ends.  On the other hand, if you filter-out everything below 100Hz and/or above 5kHz, you will hear the difference!

Here's a random example of a (hardware) Graphic Equalizer, just in case you don't know what I'm talking about. 

Quote
Only synthesizers are supposed to be able to voice 'pure' tones without harmonics. Even they can't, as perfection doesn't exist.
  Actually, it's pretty easy to generate a pure sine wave.  OK...  You may not be able to achieve absolute perfection, but you can generate a wave that's nearly perfect.

pitch range?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: woody_woodward on
Back in the LP days one would find very little much below 40Hz.  The reasons for this were purely mechanical.  CD's do not suffer this limitation.  In practice speakers that go down to 30Hz should be find for symphonic music.  For popular music, the lowest note on an electric bass is about 41Hz.  There are pipe organs that go down to 16Hz.  (Maybe lower.  Who knows?)  That would have to be described as profoundly deep bass.  As frequency goes lower the tactile sensation becomes prevalent.  Like an earthquake, it can be felt long before one can actually hear anything shaking.  I don't know what sort of music you like, or how wide your hearing range is. These comments are of a general nature and I hope you find them helpful.

I only listen to Classical music.

Now I use PC speakers, I use two sets hooked up to 4.1 system.

One says

40 hz to 20k

Other says
35-20k

I don't know what my hearing range is, I'm already over 18, so that should be the adult range.

Another thing is, I hear that some say these "specs" are grossly inaccurate. That is when they say 35 they mean 100 or more.

So does that mean I can't hear music properly unless I get 5000 dollar speakers?

pitch range?

Reply #11 –
'Can I appreciate a movie properly on a small 15" TV or do I need to go to the biggest Theatre in town?'
'Can I appreciate music properly on small PC speakers or do I need $5000 high-end loudspeakers?'
'Can I appreciate La Joconde properly by looking at photographs or do I need to go to Le Louvre?'

There are no definitive answers. Besides, as HTS puts it, as long as one doesn't define what he/she means with 'properly', there's no sense in such questions!   

For each and everyone, the answer will be different, and probably somewhere between the extremes.
Unless, of course, one gets totally passionate about it (then only the best is enough) or on the contrary totally 'I so don't care about it' (then there's no point in even considering the question).

So what? Well, try different setups, and go for what pleases you. Try listening some of the music you like on some really good equipement (friends, shop..), then consider if it's a revelation to you, or if you feel it doesn't bring you much and you can so live without it. It will probably be something in between.

pitch range?

Reply #13 –
The frequency range specs quoted on headphones and speakers are just marketing. Even if the measurements are valid, they don't give you any idea of how good a speaker will sound because there are dozens of other factors that affect sound quality.

Some instruments, particularly cymbals, have harmonics that extend to 30kHz and beyond. This is irrelevant though, since only bats can hear frequencies that high. The "textbook figure" for the limit of human hearing is 20kHz, but it varies between individuals. Most people probably have limits in the 17-20kHz range, and I'd be surprised if any human could hear over 22kHz.

Of course, "real instruments" aren't the only things to worry about. You can listen to just about any Aphex Twin album and not hear any "real" instruments, but it's music nonetheless.

pitch range?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: HTS on
So does that mean I can't hear music properly unless I get 5000 dollar speakers?


No. A very good way to hear what you might be missing is to use a decent pair of headphones. You can get good headphones for <US$50 (I have Sennheiser PX 100: others think very highly of Koss headphones for slightly less). Really good headphones go for $100-$200. The top end seems to stay below $1000.

Headphones are good, anyway, since with them you can enjoy "Wellington's Victory" at 3 am and still stay on good terms with your nearest and dearest (and especially nearest).

After you've used good headphones, you'll be in a position to judge your present speakers.

pitch range?

Reply #15 –
HTS,

Something else you might want to play with is a signal generator program.  You can generate tones at various frequencies to get a feel of the audio frequency range, and to "test" your speakers.  I found a FREE one called SigJenny.  Just be very careful with the high frequencies.  You can blow-out just about any tweeter with a 10 watt constant 20kHz sine wave.  And, you can blow the tweeter without hearing anything due to the limitations of the speaker and your hearing.  A speaker rating of 100 watts does not mean that it can stand a continuous 100 watt signal, and it certainly does not mean that the tweeter can handle 100 watts!!! 

Quote
Another thing is, I hear that some say these "specs" are grossly inaccurate. That is when they say 35 they mean 100 or more.
True!  And, without a +/- dB spec, the frequency range is meaningless...  It might be 20dB down at the upper and lower limits!  If the spec includes a +/- dB spec (i.e. 40 Hz to 20kHz +/- 3dB) it is more likely to be an honest spec.  It's even better if it includes a frequency response graph and the test conditions are specified.    With professional monitors, you can usually believe the specs.  With home/consumer speakers, you never know unless you can find an independent test done by a 3rd-party (such as an audio magazine).

Quote
Even if the measurements are valid, they don't give you any idea of how good a speaker will sound because there are dozens of other factors that affect sound quality.
  IMHO, the measurements can give you some idea of how a speaker is going to sound.  For example, if there is a big boost in the upper midrange, the speaker is going to sound "harsh".  If there is a big bump in at 70Hz, it's going to sound "boomy", etc.

pitch range?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
IMHO, the measurements can give you some idea of how a speaker is going to sound.  For example, if there is a big boost in the upper midrange, the speaker is going to sound "harsh".  If there is a big bump in at 70Hz, it's going to sound "boomy", etc.

Agreed. Room acoustics and speaker placement can make a notable difference in how a speaker 'sounds.' Electrical and anechoic measurements are a good place to start, but not to finish.