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Topic: 6db Hard Limiter (Read 23484 times) previous topic - next topic
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6db Hard Limiter

Reply #25 –
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One song is not representative at all. I have a very popular Red Hot Chili Peppers CD here that will clip even with 12dB reduction. Average case is no problem - it's for the bad stuff that the limiter is a safeguard.

Wow! Could you post the piece of it where the clipping goes that high?

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6dB is not quite a lot. The majority of consumer soundcards have internal clipping way before full scale level (source: Frank Klemm).


!! A card that clips at -1dB nowadays is crap, it will sound horrible with many modern music you play. I can play a signal at 0dbfs with my Audiophile without any clipping, and harmonic distortion below 0.01%.

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I don't argue that the hard limiter modifies the sound of the music - but without it and without ReplayGain, 'any modern cd track' will have heavy clipping.


I don't think *any* will have clipping if you reduce the level a couple of dB at the decoding stage. Maybe some, and I'd like to see one example, just for curiosity.

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With it it will be compressed a bit. IMHO compression is much preferable to clipping, although apparently that's a matter of preference. I could imagine that if you are used to contuniously listen to clipping music that the compressor will sound different and bad.


I don't usually listen to clipped music, because I usually listen to wav or cd. And if that music is clipped, it's because the mastering engineer or the artist wanted so. That music is supposed to clip, if you avoid this, limiting the signal, you trade planned distortion (clipping) for added distortion (limiting) not present in the original music.

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The PCM data on the CD does not go 12dB over the maximum level of the CD

That's a different case that I was talking about. In your case, the additional clipping is caused for the additional DSP (compression).

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PS. I'm interested in a sample where clipping sounds superior to limiting to you, or where limiting causes bad degradation of the original track.


Play a 1 KHz sinewave at -1 dB. You will hear it sound clearly different with and without hard limiting. Try any modern song that goes up to nearly 0 dB, uncompressed. It will sound different, with some added colouring soft distortion. The only way that the hard limiter doesn't make this, is to reduce the level of the sound at least 6 dB at the decoding stage. This case, replaygained songs that can still clip, is the only where a limiter could be useful, but I'd like to see how common is this. A few clipped samples in a noisy or loud passage are really difficult to hear. And for listening uncompresssed audio, the hard limiter simply degrades the quality of the signal.

I'd like to see how many songs have clipping just decreasing 2 dB the output at the decoding stage. Maybe some, but that's what I'd like to know, how many, how audible would be that clipping, and what reduction would be needed to avoid this.

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #26 –
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Wow! Could you post the piece of it where the clipping goes that high?


Uh, that doesn't look trivial - I'd need to cut it out the mp3 since decoding to wav will just clip to full scale audio, or I'd have to retrieve the original CD and take a guess at the settings used to encode.

(12dB is exceptional though - have only seen that a few times)

A random pick from my samples directory gives me Eels - Souljacker which decodes to +2.75dB over full scale. Not close to 12dB, but your 2dB headroom is already too small. The clipping is clearly audible to me.

The 12dB track is 'Red Hot Chilli Peppers - By the Way - Venice Queen' BTW.

REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN = -9.7400 dB
REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_PEAK = 4.5812

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!! A card that clips at -1dB nowadays is crap, it will sound horrible with many modern music you play. I can play a signal at 0dbfs with my Audiophile without any clipping, and harmonic distortion below 0.01%.


With an Audiophile, maybe, but that's unfortunately not a common consumer soundcard

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I don't think *any* will have clipping if you reduce the level a couple of dB at the decoding stage.


What's 'a couple'? You have to make a bet to a safe margin. The next year the CD's are louder again and boom there goes your margin. Moreover, if you reduce it too much, you'll have problems with people that don't have powerfull enough amplifiers. Been there, done that (with ReplayGain 83 vs 89dB issue). I don't like this kind of solutions.

If you can afford to, then yes, reducing level is always a good solution. If you don't like the effect of the limiter then it is better, as long as you take into account a bad track can go over your safety margin.

Note that if you reduce the dB, the limiter will not have any more effect on the music! So saying 'it's bad' makes little sense as it disables itself in your solution.

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I don't usually listen to clipped music, because I usually listen to wav or cd. And if that music is clipped, it's because the mastering engineer or the artist wanted so. That music is supposed to clip, if you avoid this, limiting the signal, you trade planned distortion (clipping) for added distortion (limiting) not present in the original music.


Ehm, this is factually wrong. If the music is preclipped during mastering, the limiter will preserve that clipping, although it will not be at the full scale of your output. But the planned distortion will not be affected! Feeding a square wave through a limiter gives you a square wave back (but at a lower level).

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That's a different case that I was talking about. In your case, the additional clipping is caused for the additional DSP (compression).


I don't understand at all then. What *are* you talking about?

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Play a 1 KHz sinewave at -1 dB.


Music please.

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Try any modern song that goes up to nearly 0 dB, uncompressed.


Aha, maybe this is your point? For uncompressed data without any DSP in use, it makes no sense to use the limiter for the obvious reasons that there can never be unintentional clipping.

For compressed music I would recommend enabling the Limiter with or without ReplayGain.

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #27 –
PS. Reason why I'm especially annoyed at this thread and you is the following:

Person comes in and asks what limiter is for.

Gets helped by a quote that doesn't relate to what limiter in FB2K does. Then you comment 'yeah don't use it it changes the sound'.

That's about as braindead as telling someone 'mp3pro sucks don't use it' because it's unfit for your high bitrate archiving needs. What if he has a 32M portable? Oops.

Limiter is there and enabled by default because for vast majority of users (not replaygained contemporary music MP3's) it provides better and not worse quality sound.

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #28 –
BTW. You can sort on track peak if you have replaygain info in your database.

My winner:

Gus Gus - This is Normal: REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_PEAK = 7211.5311

(admittedly probably a corrupted file )

Top 3.5:

Beethoven - Moonlight Sonata: REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_PEAK = 5.3847
Bush - Machinehead: REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_PEAK = 4.9135
Beethove - Pathetique: REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_PEAK = 4.7552

I have over 100 that have >3dB clipping.

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #29 –
Set preamp to -6 dB to avoid any compression with normal music
or replaygain your files and set Preamp to -2 dB to give headroom for those loud/album files.
Don't forget to turn the limiter on as a precaution.
I've changed only because of myself.
Remember, when you quote me, you're quoting AstralStorm.
(read: this account is dead)

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #30 –
Ok, I've done a quick check of some songs, and I don't have time to write more right now, sorry. I've checked with mp3gain around 30 mp3 songs, and found a few that go over +2 dB, one in particular (Music from Madonna) that supposedly goes up to +4.5 dB according to mp3gain. Strange thing is, I have replaygained this song -2 dB, and whilst mp3gain says it's still clipping, I've decoded it to 16 bit with LAME, and found no clipping at all!! Even checked it with CEP statistical analysis that tells even if there will be clipping between two samples (after analog reconstruction), but nothing, by a pretty wide margin.

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #31 –
Quote
Set preamp to -6 dB to avoid any compression with normal music
or replaygain your files and set Preamp to -2 dB to give headroom for those loud/album files.
Don't forget to turn the limiter on as a precaution.

With -6dB and no ReplayGain, you will still have (some very slight) compression, though only on the peaks where you would normally have clipping.
 

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #32 –
Might be interesting to note that I checked my version of "Venice Queen":

+1.2 dB according to MADPLAY.

I also checked my "Music" version:

-0.3 dB  according to MADPLAY.

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #33 –
reminder: you don't even need to use preamp DSP, volume control is applied *before* limiter (unless you enable "directsound volume control" in config which is off by default)
Microsoft Windows: We can't script here, this is bat country.

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #34 –
Eek!  I've done my best to fumble through everyones replies but most of it is beyond my knowledge.  All I wanted to know was if the limiter would change my sound at all.  I have a pretty hi-end setup; good amp and brilliant speakers [my pride and joy] and was just looking for someones advice on what to do.  Yes, I do have my own ears but I was just looking for what other people thought / suggested I do to get the best sound.  I'm not bothered about volume [I'm not that lazy - I can lean over and turn up my amp]

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #35 –
unless you're 100% sure that you will never ever have a song clip you are better off leaving it enabled.  It barely makes an audible difference, if ever, but it will protect at the very least your speakers.  The only way to be sure you will never have a song clip is to go through every single one and see what the absolute peak of all of them is and adjust the volume control in foobar as necessary to avoid that clipping.  It's a much simpler solution to simply leave the limiter on.  I've got a bunch of songs that need +1 or 2dB according to Replaygain, and they already have a peak of 0.9xxxdB anyways, so with Replaygain they'll peak at almost 3dB above full-scale.  That is unless I have the limiter turned on, which I do.  They don't clip because of the limiter, and they still sound fine to me.

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #36 –
I don't use replay gain and [correct me if I'm wrong] I would never have my amp up high enough for clipping to harm my speakers.  Perhaps I've greatly misunderstood the whole thing though...

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #37 –
Correct me if I am wrong, but why not use the preamplifier component to prevent digital clipping?

Set preamp to -6 dB.
Leave the limiter on to be extra safe, it will probably never activate.
Crank your amp up 6 dB.

A negative effect of this is that (on a 16 bit card) you lose one bit of precision, i.e., take these 6 dB right out of dynamic range and S/N.  But if your brilliant speakers are fed by a brilliant 24 bit card, this is not an issue.

-- Oops, should read previous posts.

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #38 –
'fraid not mate, it's a 16 bitter  And my speakers are brilliant, Elxat Synphony 6.2 Mmm...  Lol

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #39 –
when clipping's involved, it doesn't take much to fry tweeters, clipping should be avoided whenever possible

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #40 –
Quote
Correct me if I am wrong, but why not use the preamplifier component to prevent digital clipping?

Set preamp to -6 dB.
Leave the limiter on to be extra safe, it will probably never activate.
Crank your amp up 6 dB.

A negative effect of this is that (on a 16 bit card) you lose one bit of precision, i.e., take these 6 dB right out of dynamic range and S/N.  But if your brilliant speakers are fed by a brilliant 24 bit card, this is not an issue.

-- Oops, should read previous posts.

Yes, this sums things up pretty well.

I've sent Peter some of the badly clipping files and asked to check whether it's not a decoder problem or corrupted files which makes it hiccup. If it is, KikeG's suggestion of just setting preamp to -3dB and disabling the limiter may also be fine in practise. But the above is definetely the way to go if you have a good amp-soundcard combination.

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #41 –
[deleted]

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #42 –
Quote
Quote
PS. Reason why I'm especially annoyed at this thread and you is the following:

Person comes in and asks what limiter is for.

Gets helped by a quote that doesn't relate to what limiter in FB2K does. Then you comment 'yeah don't use it it changes the sound'.

I just wanted to note that if I see further discussion of this sort in other threads, please let me know so I can split them off into another topic, and avoid this kind of annoyance for all the users.

Sorry for making such a comment. I was so naive as to think this forums were for discussing things  Mmm... I though we were talking about hard limiter, and the discussion derived into pros and cons of it. I like to discuss such things, I get sometimes quite involved, but where did I go off-topic??

Edit: sorry If I was too ironic in the first sencence, but I truly believe my post was not that inadequate.

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #43 –
I don't think the discussion was offtopic at all. My complaint was about the way there had been replied to the original question.

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #44 –
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I don't think the discussion was offtopic at all. My complaint was about the way there had been replied to the original question.

OK, I guess my response should have been more detailed then. I had talked about this same thing previously with more detail, and I was in a hurry, so I thought this response was enough.

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #45 –
So, I've been doing some more testing over this, and here is what I've found.

Ok, I must admit that the figure I proposed of -2dB of headroom is not enough in case of highly compressed audio, because here it can lead to too much clipping in some cases. In case of high-bitrate compressed music, it's probably enough to avoid audible clipping in most cases. Anyway, I think -3 dB is a better figure for all cases.

Over around 300 non-replaygained mp3 songs I tested, after applying a mp3gain of -3 dB, I found around 10 that still had some clipping, all of them old-dowloaded 128 Kbps mp3 or 64 Kbps compressed samples for this test. I found that this clipping was very little in all cases, with a worst case of a song with a few isolated clipped samples distributed all over the song, around 15 samples in this worst case. In the other worse case, I found a max. of 3 consecutive clipped samples, a couple of times in the song. I believe this clipping is little and distributed enough as to have no audible consequences at all.

Anyway, if you want to be extra safe, use a higher reduction (as said, be it by replaygaining the songs or by moving the DSP preamp to a higher value).

I'm being so stubborn with this because I strongly believe that the hard limiter is evil  . Unless all original signal falls below the range of action of the limiter, that is, -6 dB below full scale, it will always distort the sound and make things audibly different. I produces a fuller and slightly coloured sound, but this is not an accurate way of playing music, unless desired. I think this is one of the main reasons why people say that Foobar2000 sounds different to Winamp. On the other hand, a little clipping as the one I've described, I think is not audible at all.

Sorry if I annoyed anyone with my previous posts.

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #47 –
AFAIK Peter is working on enhancing it with lookahead, so it only becomes active when it knows the signal is going to clip 'soon'. That would be the best of both worlds I think. No clipping -> no limiter.

6db Hard Limiter

Reply #48 –
"transparent look-ahead limiter"

This is pretty much what it will behave like, this is from the matlab project.
The limiter is transparent all the way until a clip or near-clip sample and it sounds pretty good when it clips too.

note! The "6dB Hard limiter" should really be called a "Soft clipping limiter" or "soft distortion limiter" since that's what it really is. it still clips, but does this in a soft manner.