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Topic: lossless ripping from copied cds? (Read 3843 times) previous topic - next topic
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lossless ripping from copied cds?

just curious - I am currently backing up my cd collection to flac. I have a few cd copies that friends have given me over the years. they were not compressed to mp3 and then burned as an audio disc - I believe they were just straight copies. would there be any dataloss in creating flac rips of these cd-r's?

thanks

lossless ripping from copied cds?

Reply #1 –
You are not going to lose any more quality going from CD-R to FLAC, than original CD to FLAC.

However, there may be quality loss between the original and the copy depending on the method in which your friends burned/copied the discs.

[span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Edit: Added "more" and ", than original CD to FLAC". Removed answer to life, the universe and everything as it was just confusing the issue at hand.[/span]
I'm on a horse.

lossless ripping from copied cds?

Reply #2 –
Interesting one this, it seems that there can be a quality loss in copied CD's.  I have come across a problem when encoding 2nd generation CD's to flac with EAC.  So far with 250 original CD's, no problems.  With 5 CD copies, 3 report errors and the flac files generate audible clicks on playback.  The CD copies play back fine on a CD player and when ripped to 320 MP3.

I suspect that the problem is due to errors introduced as a result of the high-speed (16x) copying process and may well not occur, or at least be reduced, at slower copy speeds.

lossless ripping from copied cds?

Reply #3 –
Quote
With 5 CD copies, 3 report errors and the flac files generate audible clicks on playback.  The CD copies play back fine on a CD player and when ripped to 320 MP3.
i don't believe that the mp3 sounds fine where the flac has clicks. did you rip the cd once for each encode instead of using one rip as a base?

i certainly believe that cd-rs can degrade over time and give the drives' error correction a hard time, but flac or mp3 has nothing to do with that whatsoever.

lossless ripping from copied cds?

Reply #4 –
The format you choose to rip to has no impact on the audio stream as it's read from the CD-R. If the CD-R copy has no loss, and the reading process goes well ...(which is affected only by hardware and reading/ripping software).... then there has been no loss. It may appear as a one-step process, but the conversion to a lossless format is actually a secondary process, and will cuase no additional data loss.

In other words, the fact that you're ripping to FLAC has no bearing on the conversation. The question may as well have been "Could there be any data loss when ripping music from a CD-R?"
 

lossless ripping from copied cds?

Reply #5 –
Quote
i certainly believe that cd-rs can degrade over time and give the drives' error correction a hard time, but flac or mp3 has nothing to do with that whatsoever.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=343930"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Point taken, the MP3's were encoded a couple of years ago using WMP9 with MP3 plug-in.  Also it's unlikely to have been the same drive (or even computer) as that for recent flac encodes.  So back to basics....same computer, same drive.

Drive 1 (Sony DVD-ROM DDU1621):-

320 MP3 on WMP10 - Quick encode (< 1m), some low level clicks and pops, no skips or jumps

320 MP3 LAME on EAC - Extremely slow encode (0.5% in 7m), synch and read errors reported.  Error correction indicator constantly operating.  Gave up!

FLAC on EAC - As MP3 (as would be expected - this is the WAV stage)

Drive 2 (Sony DVD-RW DRU530A:-
320 MP3 on WMP10 - Rip stalled at 5%

320 MP3 LAME on EAC - After 8 mins of the error correction indicator operating, and 0.1% progress on encode gave up.

FLAC on EAC - As MP3

So a (very) dodgy copy then, that may also have degraded over time - but one that still plays audibly perfectly on the three CD players I tested it on.

Thanks for the interest

lossless ripping from copied cds?

Reply #6 –
Quote
Quote
i certainly believe that cd-rs can degrade over time and give the drives' error correction a hard time, but flac or mp3 has nothing to do with that whatsoever.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=343930"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Point taken, the MP3's were encoded a couple of years ago using WMP9 with MP3 plug-in.  Also it's unlikely to have been the same drive (or even computer) as that for recent flac encodes.  So back to basics....same computer, same drive.

Drive 1 (Sony DVD-ROM DDU1621):-

320 MP3 on WMP10 - Quick encode (< 1m), some low level clicks and pops, no skips or jumps

320 MP3 LAME on EAC - Extremely slow encode (0.5% in 7m), synch and read errors reported.  Error correction indicator constantly operating.  Gave up!

FLAC on EAC - As MP3 (as would be expected - this is the WAV stage)

Drive 2 (Sony DVD-RW DRU530A:-
320 MP3 on WMP10 - Rip stalled at 5%

320 MP3 LAME on EAC - After 8 mins of the error correction indicator operating, and 0.1% progress on encode gave up.

FLAC on EAC - As MP3

So a (very) dodgy copy then, that may also have degraded over time - but one that still plays audibly perfectly on the three CD players I tested it on.

Thanks for the interest
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=343955"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It looks like either your drives are crappy at DAE or your discs are just bad. Once a disc has C2/CU errors, it depends on how well the drive can correct/if it can correct them at all.

lossless ripping from copied cds?

Reply #7 –
Quote
Quote
i certainly believe that cd-rs can degrade over time and give the drives' error correction a hard time, but flac or mp3 has nothing to do with that whatsoever.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=343930"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Point taken, the MP3's were encoded a couple of years ago using WMP9 with MP3 plug-in.  Also it's unlikely to have been the same drive (or even computer) as that for recent flac encodes.  So back to basics....same computer, same drive.

Drive 1 (Sony DVD-ROM DDU1621):-

320 MP3 on WMP10 - Quick encode (< 1m), some low level clicks and pops, no skips or jumps

320 MP3 LAME on EAC - Extremely slow encode (0.5% in 7m), synch and read errors reported.  Error correction indicator constantly operating.  Gave up!

FLAC on EAC - As MP3 (as would be expected - this is the WAV stage)

Drive 2 (Sony DVD-RW DRU530A:-
320 MP3 on WMP10 - Rip stalled at 5%

320 MP3 LAME on EAC - After 8 mins of the error correction indicator operating, and 0.1% progress on encode gave up.

FLAC on EAC - As MP3

So a (very) dodgy copy then, that may also have degraded over time - but one that still plays audibly perfectly on the three CD players I tested it on.

Thanks for the interest
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=343955"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
so basically you are comparing rippers and drives and how they deal with what appear to be heavily damaged discs. the words "flac" and "mp3" wouldn't even need to be in your results.

the original poster's question was flawed to begin with, since lossless describes a process, not a state. so whether you can get a bit-identical (to the original) rip of a copy of an original mainly depends on how the copy was produced and in which state it's in.

i think if you carefully configure offsets and use good eac settings you can always get another bit-identical (to the original) copy of a copy.

since the discs were supposedly handed over by a friend, no clear statement can be made whether the rip will be identical to the original. if the discs are readable, though, the rip should be identical to the copy.

flac, mp3, ... are the next step and fall out of consideration here as it was already said.