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Topic: LP to CDR transfer 24bit/96kHz vs. 16bit/44.1kHz (Read 3715 times) previous topic - next topic
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LP to CDR transfer 24bit/96kHz vs. 16bit/44.1kHz

Hello,

I want to transfer a huge LP collection to CD-R for occasional listening, ...in my office, car etc.

I bought external M-Audio Audiophile USB ADC/DAC

It can record up to 24bit/96kHz

My TT rig is:
Thorens TD-126 MkI turntable,
SME 3009 S2imp arm,
Shure V15VxMR cartridge,
Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 SE phono preamp,

My SME was rewired with Van den Hul MCS - 150 M cable.
Cable from tone arm to preamp is Van den Hul D - 502 HYBRID.

Shure V15VxMR has this microridge stylus, which is great for archiving old LPs - much less distortion from worn out grooves.

The downside is that the treble is rolled off and the sound is too warm for my taste.

(yes, I played a lot with cables and capacitance, but this just seem to be the character of this cartridge)

Using test LP sweep tones, I created a custom graphic EQ preset for Adobe Audition 1.5 (CoolEdit originally before Adobe bought it).

Now I get ruler flat frequency response from my cartridge/cable/preamp combination and the sound is much crisper now :-)

The big question is:

do I record at  24bit/96kHz, apply the graphic EQ and then downsample to 16bit/44.1kHz?

At first I thought that this is a good idea.

But then I started reading numerous web pages dedicated to downsampling...

My brain got swollen from all this dithering, triangular noise shaping, custom curves, bit mapping, etc.

I came to conclusion that I might get some distortion, additional noise, lowered dynamic, digital artefacts, etc. when I downsample.

On the other hand, 24bit has much more information to work with...

I only plan to use the graphic EQ with the adjustments no bigger than +3.8 dB.

Nothing drastic.

Do I get better sound by applying moderate EQ in 16bit/44.1kHz,
or doing it in 24bit/96kHz (or better a 2x multiple of 44.1kHz) and then downsampling to 16bit/44.1kHz

If downsampling is better, what settings would you recommend for Audition/CoolEdit?

Thanks a lot,

Aleksandar

LP to CDR transfer 24bit/96kHz vs. 16bit/44.1kHz

Reply #1 –
Theoretically...

record at 24/96, EQ at 24/96, then resample to 16/44.1 using 1-bit triangular dither no noise shaping, with the filter quality at about 256.

Practically...

just do it all at 16/44.1. It'll be fine. Make sure "dither transform results" is enabled.

Cheers,
David.

LP to CDR transfer 24bit/96kHz vs. 16bit/44.1kHz

Reply #2 –
Quote
Practically...

just do it all at 16/44.1. It'll be fine. Make sure "dither transform results" is enabled.

I agree. LP has lots of qualities, but a low noise floor isn't one of them (to modern, digital standards). Your AD converter probably has an internal resolution that exceeds 16 bits. So even when you record at 16 bits directly, there is dithering involved. After EQ'ing you'll have to redither the signal again, but I doubt that this will be a problem with LP as a source.

People in this forum are fond of testing. Why not make 2 versions (16/44.1 and 24/96) and compare the final results. If you can't hear any difference, why bother ?
Since you want to transfer a huge collection, this test will take relatively little time.
(please post your findings here, if you decide to do the test).

Good luck !

LP to CDR transfer 24bit/96kHz vs. 16bit/44.1kHz

Reply #3 –
Quote
The downside is that the treble is rolled off and the sound is too warm for my taste.

(yes, I played a lot with cables and capacitance, but this just seem to be the character of this cartridge)

[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=335405"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


This is probably moot, as AFAIK it's not something you can change on the Thorens, but VTA (vertical tracking angle)  has a large bearing on this.

If the arm looks like it's tilting down toward the arm-pillar, the sound can be a bit woolly. If it is, and by some chance there is way of raising the arm on it's mounting to get it nearer parallel to the LP surface, the sound will sharpen up.

Quote
do I record at  24bit/96kHz, apply the graphic EQ and then downsample to 16bit/44.1kHz?

At first I thought that this is a good idea.

But then I started reading numerous web pages dedicated to downsampling...

My brain got swollen from all this dithering, triangular noise shaping, custom curves, bit mapping, etc.

I came to conclusion that I might get some distortion, additional noise, lowered dynamic, digital artefacts, etc. when I downsample.

On the other hand, 24bit has much more information to work with...

I only plan to use the graphic EQ with the adjustments no bigger than +3.8 dB.

Nothing drastic.

Do I get better sound by applying moderate EQ in 16bit/44.1kHz,
or doing it in 24bit/96kHz (or better a 2x multiple of 44.1kHz) and then downsampling to 16bit/44.1kHz

If downsampling is better, what settings would you recommend for Audition/CoolEdit?

Thanks a lot,

Aleksandar
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=335405"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


My own preference is to record at 24/44.1 and depth convert with dither.

But If you intend using any processing in Audition, such as the EQ you mentioned, 24 bits will give Audition's algorithms much more to chew on, and in fact I'd be inclined to use 88.2KHz (rather than 96KHz, if it's destined for burning to CD), if your M-audio has this option.

A little triangular dither on conversion  never did any harm - without it you're basically just truncating (chopping off) the extra 8 bits.

R.

LP to CDR transfer 24bit/96kHz vs. 16bit/44.1kHz

Reply #5 –
Quote
Anyone thinking about adjusting VTA might want to consider this article
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=335564"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The writer is discussing 'micro' adjustments of VTA.

Gross variations due to the varying heights of cartridges certainly do need to be allowed for, particularly with line-contact styli, if only to get the stylus rake angle more-or-less right.

R.

LP to CDR transfer 24bit/96kHz vs. 16bit/44.1kHz

Reply #6 –
Certainly, the cartridge can't be pointing up at the ceiling or some such. However, adequate positioning is generally built in by the tonearm manufacturer, aiming to be accepted in the market and function with most cartridge offerings. The great majority of tonearms, even many quite expensive and well thought of arms, do not have VTA adjustments. The point is that people should not start worrying about that when there are so many other things on which to spend their money.