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Topic: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive (Read 3876 times) previous topic - next topic
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windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Background: I am using an M2Tech HIface2 USB adapter for output direct to my integrated amp's digital coaxial input. Source material is recorded from vinyl at 192KHz sample rate. Latest Windows software and hardware newly installed on a small 14th Gen Core Ultra 7 machine.

Trying to find the best FB2K configuration using M2Tech's drivers and the appropriate FB2K components and narrowing this down to a choice of two outputs, namely ASIO or exclusive.

To my ears the ASIO is still easily the better sound because the alternative exaggerates high frequencies and merges what could be called metallic sounds into just one frequency. This is particularly noticeable with percussion and each part of a drum kit sounds the same and cymbals seem to die at the same rate with only one colour. In addition bass is more distinct with better instrument colour/tone.

Can anyone explain why this might be and in particular expand on what the M2Tech "exclusive" device concept is when chosen as output? Because the M2Tech is not readily available now I am also considering a CYP AU-D6-384 device which appears to have a similar function.

Any advice or comments very welcome.

 

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #1
To my ears the ASIO is still easily the better sound because the alternative exaggerates high frequencies and merges what could be called metallic sounds into just one frequency. This is particularly noticeable with percussion and each part of a drum kit sounds the same and cymbals seem to die at the same rate with only one colour. In addition bass is more distinct with better instrument colour/tone.

Can anyone explain why this might be and in particular expand on what the M2Tech "exclusive" device concept is when chosen as output? Because the M2Tech is not readily available now I am also considering a CYP AU-D6-384 device which appears to have a similar function.

Any advice or comments very welcome
Both wasapi exclusive and ASIO pass unaltered audio directly from the source file to the audio device, bypassing the Windows Mixer.  Unless you are inadvertently inserting some DSP effect into one of the choices (EQ, fade, filters) they will both sound exactly the same.  The difference in "colour" and bass you mention are from a placebo effect or not playing the output at the same audio level.  Of course the output device may be altering the sound as well.
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,3974.0.html#post_tos8

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #2
Yes, both modes pass the RME bit transparency test with my RME interface so there is zero difference in the data hitting your DAC, monitors, room and ears. Anything else is likely to be pulling the wool over one's own eyes...

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #3
Foobar: I would need a time-critical thread priority setting. (Like ASIO plugin)
No "only" 1-7.

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #4

Both wasapi exclusive and ASIO pass unaltered audio directly from the source file to the audio device, bypassing the Windows Mixer.  Unless you are inadvertently inserting some DSP effect into one of the choices (EQ, fade, filters) they will both sound exactly the same.  The difference in "colour" and bass you mention are from a placebo effect or not playing the output at the same audio level.  Of course the output device may be altering the sound as well.
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,3974.0.html#post_tos8
Sorry I should have been clearer. I am not comparing the wasapi exclusive mode but the one labelled "speakers (HiFace2) exclusive" in the output device list. There are also two wasapi options labelled (event) and (push) could you explain what the difference is please? I'll give them a try. The windows settings ( via mmsys.cpl ) are set to disable all effects.

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #5
I will quote from a post on the Cakewalk forums:
"Event is said to offer lower latency on devices that support it (the DAC controls the flow of data, continuously "pulling" it from the app), and Push (where the app "pushes" it to the DAC) which is said to be more compatible with older devices but has higher latency.
Another aspect is jitter. Event relies on the clock in the interface for timing whereas Push relies on the computer's clock. Interface clocks are known to be more stable, and audio quality can suffer when there's more jitter."
https://discuss.cakewalk.com/topic/66263-wasapi-exclusive-push-or-event/

ALL outputs in the latest version of foobar2000 use WASAPI on Windows, the default outputs use WASAPI Shared, which will pass through the Windows mixer, the outputs labeled [exclusive] use WASAPI Exclusive Event mode.
For WASAPI Exclusive Push mode:
Preferences > Advanced > Playback > check Exclusive output overrides > uncheck Use event.

There are 2 ASIO output components you can try:
https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_asio
https://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/files/foo_out_asio%2Bdsd/

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #6
Push and event based have zero difference in jitter or latency. The audio timing is done 100% by the audio interface and latency depends on buffer length. In this case the internal WASAPI buffer, which is typically about 10 ms in foobar2000.

Event based buffering is more efficient of the two: the playback thread sleeps without consuming any CPU power until the driver sends an event asking for more data. The event wakes the thread up, buffer is filled, and the thread goes back to sleep.

In push mode the playback thread sleeps for short periods, wakes up, checks how much new data audio driver can take in (if any), fills the buffers if there is space, then goes back to sleep.

There should be no devices that don't work on event based signaling, support for it has been requirement since at least Windows Vista days.

And just to be clear, if your device has problems with push or event mode and the timing is off, it won't cause any "jitter" problems but very audible glitches, clicks, pops, cracking and in worst case possibly even pauses.

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #7
Foobar: I would need a time-critical thread priority setting. (Like ASIO plugin)
No "only" 1-7.
Manually set realtime priority should never be needed. Playback threads use the OS multimedia scheduler that is designed for the sole purpose of making sure audio playback always runs glitchlessly. Too high DPC latency is known to ruin playback, but realtime priority can't fix that. It might improve things slightly, but the only solution is to find the driver or program causing such latencies and get rid of the problem.

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #8
Sorry I should have been clearer. I am not comparing the wasapi exclusive mode but the one labelled "speakers (HiFace2) exclusive" in the output device list.
Foobar uses wasapi by default.  Any named device on the output list that ends with "exclusive" IS using wasapi "exclusive" (as opposed to wasapi shared).  These have been defined endlessly in the forum, as have the event/push options only used by wasapi exclusive.

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #9
Dear Case,

You are wrong. Time-critical thread priority is absolutely necessary, just like in the ASIO plugin, where it works. Quite simply, it sounds better this way—closer to the magic of LPs. I am an audio diyer, so I know what I'm talking about. I accept that others may not hear the difference, but I know it can be done. It's quite frustrating to have to set this manually all the time—for every piece of music...

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #10
That is utter nonsense. If there are no glitches from buffer runouts, there is no difference in audio quality. All the digital to analog audio conversion happens in the DAC using its own clocks and buffers. System or player component priorities have absolutely nothing to do with the process.

ASIO has realtime priority because Peter is nice and some people seem to run really bad setups or really bad drivers. For example this thread from 2012 is a story how user's ASIO can't work right without insane priority boost: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,97127.0.html. And another from 2014: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,104519.0.html.

Realtime priority was added solely as a workaround for such broken setup combinations. Not because some delusional people incorrectly think that it sounds better.

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #11
Thanks all for your replies and explanations. There is a lot to try to get my head around here but I think I am better informed than before.

 

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #12
Dear Case,

I completely understand your point of view. After all, not everyone has a high-resolution system that allows them to hear the differences. And, to be fair, this difference is less noticeable on more average audio systems.

However, Foobar is an excellent music player—better than anything else I’ve come across on Windows. This shouldn’t be a dealbreaker. The time-critical setting is necessary. But not as a default—just as an available option. Case won’t be the one using it, I will.

And yes, adding the time-critical setting for ASIO was the right decision, and I’m asking for the same in Foobar2000 as an adjustable option. Many people use AP Linux for music playback—why is that? Why do so many say Linux is better than Windows for this? I’m sure Case won’t be the one answering that question.

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #13
it sounds better this way—closer to the magic of LPs
Quote from: TotoWood
After all, not everyone has a high-resolution system that allows them to hear the differences.
I guess I got rid of my LP player too soon

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #14
A high-quality LP player with high-quality records (both are necessary) sounds better than a CD—or any format equivalent to a CD. As long as the master is good. However, PCM 192 kHz/24-bit is sufficient for everything. Let me repeat that—sufficient for everything. With a good remaster.

A digital player will never provide the exact experience of an LP, but a good digital player can get closer to the advantages found in LPs or even master tapes. And I’m only talking about the advantages.

You don’t have to agree with me, and you don’t have to use the player the way I do (Time Critical, Realtime Priority, memory-based playback, etc.), but regardless, I and many others need this—while also respecting that many others do not.

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #15
A high-quality LP player with high-quality records (both are necessary) sounds better than a CD—or any format equivalent to a CD.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!  Wow!

As long as the master is good. However, PCM 192 kHz/24-bit is sufficient for everything. Let me repeat that—sufficient for everything. With a good remaster.
LMAO!  You might want to read this forum's terms of service.  You've violated TOS#8

A digital player will never provide the exact experience of an LP, but a good digital player can get closer to the advantages found in LPs or even master tapes. And I’m only talking about the advantages.
You're a vinyl fanboy, who doesn't know what they're talking about.

You don’t have to agree with me, and you don’t have to use the player the way I do (Time Critical, Realtime Priority, memory-based playback, etc.), but regardless, I and many others need this—while also respecting that many others do not.
I don't agree with you because you're 100% wrong here.

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #16
I never would have thought that we live in such different worlds, but I have to add that everyone has their own system—and they use it the way they like or based on their experience. However, dismissing someone else’s experience as nonsense isn’t exactly constructive. Because I’ll have my own opinion about that.

Foobar2000 is a high-end player, but I find one major feature missing—the optional time-critical setting for thread management. This is how I use it now.

But to wrap things up, let me ask you a question, since you seem so sure that you’re right: Why do so many people prefer AP Linux, and why does it sound better? Even though it’s less convenient?

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #17
Dear Case,

You are wrong. Time-critical thread priority is absolutely necessary, just like in the ASIO plugin, where it works. Quite simply, it sounds better this way—closer to the magic of LPs. I am an audio diyer, so I know what I'm talking about. I accept that others may not hear the difference, but I know it can be done. It's quite frustrating to have to set this manually all the time—for every piece of music...

I don't agree with most of what you're saying, but if you want to permanently change the scheduling of a particular app or task in Windows, just use Process Lasso. Free version will do it, but paid license is also very cheap:

https://bitsum.com/

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #18
Do yourself a favor and record the output from foobar2000 playback with realtime priority vs not using realtime priority. Record the exact same track where you think you hear the difference. You can record digital output or high quality analog, doesn't really matter. But if you get digital output all verification steps will be easier.

After you have the recordings edit them just enough so that they are time aligned. Set foobar2000 to realtime priority, then compare the tracks in ABX tool. I think you'll be surprised how your high quality setup no longer manages to reveal any differences.

You can also use similar steps to record the vinyl output, then get someone play the vinyl vs digital recording without you seeing what is the source of the playback. You will also find out that the "magic" of vinyl has been perfectly captured even by lower resolution recording than CD can achieve.

"Audiophiles" believe what they want to believe, most often they make things super complicated because some marketer has convinced them that it gives better quality. Placebo is a powerful tool. Audio quality is very easy to measure. Human hearing sucks but instruments can tell exactly what comes out of wires.

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #19
The thing is, theory and practice don’t always align. And this only becomes clear when something is tested and actually listened to.

I requested a very important setting option, but that doesn’t mean everyone has to use it that way. There is no system that suits everyone equally. There are systems that work for one community of enthusiasts but not for another. And even within those communities, there are debates and disagreements.

I’ve tried Bitsum and similar programs—they don’t work here. Because we’re talking about thread priority, which is not the same as simply setting a program to real-time priority. That’s already there, and it’s automatic—just like the high I/O priority. If these programs could handle thread priority properly, I wouldn’t be bringing this up.

There’s a range from 1 to 7—I’ve experimented with MMCSS Audio and Pro Audio, but this should be improved optionally so that the time-critical setting is accessible.

I’m not trying to change anyone’s worldview or force my preferences on others—and they shouldn’t do that to me either.

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #20
I never would have thought that we live in such different worlds, but I have to add that everyone has their own system—and they use it the way they like or based on their experience. However, dismissing someone else’s experience as nonsense isn’t exactly constructive. Because I’ll have my own opinion about that.

Foobar2000 is a high-end player, but I find one major feature missing—the optional time-critical setting for thread management. This is how I use it now.

But to wrap things up, let me ask you a question, since you seem so sure that you’re right: Why do so many people prefer AP Linux, and why does it sound better? Even though it’s less convenient?
I can't take people like you seriously.  I'm not denying anyone's experiences good or bad but I also know when people are clearly wrong or full of crap especially after seeing people like you post about vinyl being a superior format.  Here's a clue about that: it's not.  It doesn't bother me if you like vinyl or prefer it, if you prefer the distortion of a vinyl record that's one thing but to argue it's a superior audio format out of the blue when it really isn't shows your lack of understanding or personal ignorance about how digital audio actually works.  Especially in that same post about 192/24 being better than 44.1/16.  That crap can get you thrown off this forum.

Look at what you said in your this post:
Why do so many people prefer AP Linux, and why does it sound better?
I want proof of this, if you got any otherwise it's just pure nonsense.

EDIT & APPEND:

The thing is, theory and practice don’t always align. And this only becomes clear when something is tested and actually listened to.

I requested a very important setting option, but that doesn’t mean everyone has to use it that way. There is no system that suits everyone equally. There are systems that work for one community of enthusiasts but not for another. And even within those communities, there are debates and disagreements.

I’ve tried Bitsum and similar programs—they don’t work here. Because we’re talking about thread priority, which is not the same as simply setting a program to real-time priority. That’s already there, and it’s automatic—just like the high I/O priority. If these programs could handle thread priority properly, I wouldn’t be bringing this up.

There’s a range from 1 to 7—I’ve experimented with MMCSS Audio and Pro Audio, but this should be improved optionally so that the time-critical setting is accessible.

I’m not trying to change anyone’s worldview or force my preferences on others—and they shouldn’t do that to me either.
No one is forcing their preferences on you.

Feature requests are one thing I'm generally fine with.  If you can prove an actual bug there where you need ridiculous high priority that's fine, too but I doubt you need that as it's more likely a problem with your setup.  Also if you're using Linux, then WASAPI might not work as well because it's a very different operating system with very different APIs and you're likely also running this through WINE which is translating a bunch of stuff, so if that's the case, you're also stuck with whatever is willing to work in that configuration and setup.

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #21
But while we're at it—does this mean ASIO's role should also be questioned? Why is it better than, say, Kernel Streaming? Because for me, Kernel Streaming used to sound much better. So does that mean anyone using ASIO is dumb?

So this is where we are. I won’t dive into AP Linux here, but if you're interested, check out what people are saying about it online. I only brought it up because for some people, it simply sounds better, even though theoretically, there shouldn’t be any difference.

That said, I use Foobar with time-critical thread settings, but it’s frustrating to keep adjusting it all the time. And no, this is not the same as just setting it to real-time in Task Manager.

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #22
But while we're at it—does this mean ASIO's role should also be questioned? Why is it better than, say, Kernel Streaming? Because for me, Kernel Streaming used to sound much better. So does that mean anyone using ASIO is dumb?

So this is where we are. I won’t dive into AP Linux here, but if you're interested, check out what people are saying about it online. I only brought it up because for some people, it simply sounds better, even though theoretically, there shouldn’t be any difference.

That said, I use Foobar with time-critical thread settings, but it’s frustrating to keep adjusting it all the time. And no, this is not the same as just setting it to real-time in Task Manager.


Again, I want you to post actual proof this sounds better otherwise it's just nonsense.

No one is dumb for using something that works for their particular setup.  If duck tape works, use it.  However one can be considered dumb for repeating claims that have been verified to be false or untrue and other types of nonsense or simply spreading misinformation.

It's fine, if you like Linux and want to ditch Windows and not bother with the Apple ecosystem but making claims another operating systems such as Linux sounds better than Windows or vice versa makes you look like an idiot on this forum and can get you into trouble quick.

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #23
How am I supposed to provide proof of anything over the internet? This is something you experience in person—listening to different systems and evaluating them.

The setting I’m asking for is available in System Informer, but it can’t be saved because it applies to threads—which is exactly why I brought this up on this forum.

If you have a high-resolution headphone and set time-critical priority for the threads that require continuous CPU priority, you’ll hear the difference—at least on Windows 11 24H2.

Re: windows 11 ASIO vs Exclusive

Reply #24
How am I supposed to provide proof of anything over the internet? This is something you experience in person—listening to different systems and evaluating them.

The setting I’m asking for is available in System Informer, but it can’t be saved because it applies to threads—which is exactly why I brought this up on this forum.

If you have a high-resolution headphone and set time-critical priority for the threads that require continuous CPU priority, you’ll hear the difference—at least on Windows 11 24H2.

There shouldn't be any differences between these two operating systems.  I'm on Windows 11 24H2 and don't have any problems like that at all where the audio actually sounds different when changing CPU priorities.  Either you're imagining this (quite likely) or there is something very wrong with your computer.

The high resolution headphone thing is just pure nonsense as well.  What is that supposed to be?