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Topic: Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread (Read 14484 times) previous topic - next topic
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Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

After about 12 hours of burn-in using broad spectrum pink noise (generated with Cool Edit), I'm still getting dismal low bass response from these cans, and mediocre bass response in general.

Tested with various LF sinewaves between 15Hz and 100Hz, and compared against my Denon AH-D550 headphones (no ABXing necessary, the difference is too obvious).  Is this normal at this state of burn-in, or can I expect a tinny pair of cans here? 

Opinions welcome -- if the situation is the same in 7 days, they go back to the store.

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #1 –
I just got mine yesterday; but immediately noticed the thin bass response. I'm used to my old 580's and thought maybe I expected too much; so hoped a burn in period would allow me to get some decent low end response I could live with. Sounds like I'm going to have to return them, if after a week your still not getting any improvement. Bummer!    cadabra3

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #2 –
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I just got mine yesterday; but immediately noticed the thin bass response. I'm used to my old 580's and thought maybe I expected too much; so hoped a burn in period would allow me to get some decent low end response I could live with. Sounds like I'm going to have to return them, if after a week your still not getting any improvement. Bummer!     cadabra3

Don't you mean if *you're* not getting any improvement?    (I mean, I assume you're burning in your pair too).

Try generating some pink noise with Cool Edit (Generate/Noise)... I'm using pink noise in "spatial stereo" with an intensity of 12... I just plugged my soundcard temporarily into a boombox to really crank up the volume, maybe that will help.  Pink noise should be the best full-spectrum type sound to break in the headphone drivers.  Word is that these headphones require at least 48 hrs burn-in, but it's hard to imagine they could improve *that much*.

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #3 –
Thanks, fewtch- for the info and grammar lesson!    Let us (or me) know if you get any improvement. I don't remember such an intensive burn-in with the 580's- but different entirely, I guess.
Thanks again- 'the grammarian' cadabra3 

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #4 –
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Thanks, fewtch- for the info and grammar lesson!    Let us (or me) know if you get any improvement. I don't remember such an intensive burn-in with the 580's- but different entirely, I guess.
Thanks again- 'the grammarian' cadabra3 

I didn't mean to focus on your grammar  , just meant that maybe you'll have better luck than I will.  Hopefully the bass response will improve -- headphones with a reasonably flat frequency response should have slamming bass when the bass is boosted with a graphic equalizer -- these don't (right now, anyway).  If they still don't after awhile, it means the low end frequency response is poor (no excuses from the "most headphones have too much bass" crowd). 

Cheers...

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #5 –
Burning-in headphones and speakers is a waste of time. So if your new headphone has weak wass compared to your old one, don't expect that burning-in them will change anything.

Maybe it's the Denon that had too much bass, and you are just used to it.

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #6 –
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Burning-in headphones and speakers is a waste of time. So if your new headphone has weak wass compared to your old one, don't expect that burning-in them will change anything.

Maybe it's the Denon that had too much bass, and you are just used to it.

I thought I addressed this in the last post... these cans aren't responding properly even when bass is artificially boosted using a graphic equalizer.  Lower frequency sine waves (~20-25Hz) that are audible on the Denon cans aren't audible at all with the Sennheisers.

Also, I disagree completely about burning in headphones (don't know about speakers, having never tried it).  The Grado SR-60's I bought last year sounded horrible out of the box, and quite good after some usage.  It makes sense from here that the flexibility and movement characteristics of a diaphragm (moving parts) will change after being used for some time.

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #7 –
At work I have a Sennheiser HD-265. Because I liked it and it was not too expensive, I bought one for home usage.
There never was a difference in sound between the new one and the older.
So at least for this Headphone KikeG is right. And my recent ones did not change their sound either during their lifetime. They werde a Yamaha, don't know the type and a Beyer DT-880.
Fewtch, you might compare your HD-280 to another one in the store where you bought them. Then you'll hear if yours respond as designed by the manufacturer.

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #8 –
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At work I have a Sennheiser HD-265. Because I liked it and it was not too expensive, I bought one for home usage.
There never was a difference in sound between the new one and the older.
So at least for this Headphone KikeG is right. And my recent ones did not change their sound either during their lifetime. They werde a Yamaha, don't know the type and a Beyer DT-880.
Fewtch, you might compare your HD-280 to another one in the store where you bought them. Then you'll hear if yours respond as designed by the manufacturer.

For what it's worth (don't know what that is), every site on the web is recommending 48 hrs "burn in" with the HD-280 Pro, including individual users who all noticed a difference.

I can't compare the sound of headphones over the buy.com website.  It doesn't matter -- if I'm not happy in a week they go back (good policy on RMA, glad I spent the extra $20 from this place).  What I was hoping was to get some feedback from other (long-term) HD280Pro users here to get their impressions.

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #9 –
Did these users conduct an ABX test?

AFAIK, burning in is only required for capacitors (read - amplifiers).
ruxvilti'a

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #10 –
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Also, I disagree completely about burning in headphones (don't know about speakers, having never tried it).  The Grado SR-60's I bought last year sounded horrible out of the box, and quite good after some usage.  It makes sense from here that the flexibility and movement characteristics of a diaphragm (moving parts) will change after being used for some time.

How do you know it wasn't your ears/brain adjusting to the frequency response of your (at the time) new headphones? I'm willing to bet 99% of "running in" claims are just this.
daefeatures.co.uk
 

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #11 –
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Quote

I didn't mean to focus on your grammar   , just meant that maybe you'll have better luck than I will.  Hopefully the bass response will improve -- headphones with a reasonably flat frequency response should have slamming bass when the bass is boosted with a graphic equalizer -- these don't (right now, anyway).  If they still don't after awhile, it means the low end frequency response is poor (no excuses from the "most headphones have too much bass" crowd). 



hey, no offense taken.  I saw your post over at Head-Fi forum (wish someone had responded); also saw posts recomending 50-60-80 hours burn-in, yikies!
I'll have to try them with my home amp set-up and see what the extra power does for them. There sure are a lot of recomendations for these; could so many people be wrong (no answer needed). Good luck- if you do return them and get a different pair- let us (alright, me) know what you chose? I don't have access to a place to audition headphones- so have to depend on advice from others. later- cadabra3

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #12 –
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For what it's worth (don't know what that is), every site on the web is recommending 48 hrs "burn in" with the HD-280 Pro, including individual users who all noticed a difference.

This analogy may be flawed, but.... Hitler managed to deceive the majority of Germany about the 'Jewish Problem'. Sometimes, the majority may not be true, especially when physics seems to indicate otherwise.
In the end, everything boils down to the fact that the human ear and brain are highly subjective, and have to be thoroughly tested for statistically correct results.
I think the issue can be quite easily resolved with an ABX test of a pair of burned-in cans with a pair straight out of the factory.

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #13 –
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could so many people be wrong (no answer needed).

Some people call that a "Mac Donald's" argument.

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #14 –
As I had posted on some other thread, I found that adjusting the position of the 280s really changes the sound. For me, moving it forward so that the driver was centred properly with my ear is extremely important. Maybe this means that headphones have "sweet spots" like speakers do, and for the 280s, it's just very narrow.

Also, try taking off the headphones while some music with a decent amount of bass is playing at a normal listening level. I don't know about you, but I can really feel the bass then by just holding them then. The bass is there, it just doesn't seem to get to your ears easily.

I'm quite sure that the HD-280 Pros have this weird bass because of the design philosophy of the headphone: Good sound (not the best, but pretty good) in a closed can that doesn't sound bass-heavy. Most closed cans sound terribly muddled simply because of the nature of closed headphones, so I'm sure that Sennheiser had to do some tweaking to keep this from happening to the 280s. This, of course, changes the entire dynamic of the low-end sound, but I do find that, once I find that sweet spot (for me it's simple: move the headphones forward until the back padding is as far as it can comfortably go), it's all good and quite enjoyable. They're no HD 600s, but what do you expect?

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #15 –
Quote
I thought I addressed this in the last post... these cans aren't responding properly even when bass is artificially boosted using a graphic equalizer.  Lower frequency sine waves (~20-25Hz) that are audible on the Denon cans aren't audible at all with the Sennheisers.

At those frequencies it's possible that what you are hearing are 20 Hz and 25 Hz harmonics, not the pure frequencies, because 20 Hz should be difficult to hear, and at those low frequencies is where headphones and speakers are more nonlinear (distort more, producing more harmonic distortion). On the other side, maybe the HD280 just have less bass extension.

I say that because I've read other people's reports about the HD280 sounding pretty well. Anyway, it they are not the type of sound you like, and you can't or don't want to use some eq to compensate it, there's no reason to keep them.

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #16 –
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Quote
Also, I disagree completely about burning in headphones (don't know about speakers, having never tried it).  The Grado SR-60's I bought last year sounded horrible out of the box, and quite good after some usage.  It makes sense from here that the flexibility and movement characteristics of a diaphragm (moving parts) will change after being used for some time.

How do you know it wasn't your ears/brain adjusting to the frequency response of your (at the time) new headphones? I'm willing to bet 99% of "running in" claims are just this.

Easy:

(1) The "breaking in" is done without ever listening (just pumping pink noise), except for an initial listen at the beginning to notice how crappy the headphones sound (yes, it's too obvious for words).  In between, listen to the old pair of headphones.

(2) After a certain period of just pumping loud noise or music, one listens again and notices a major improvement in bass, midrange and treble response (again, not in question -- it's too much of an improvement).

Doesn't a pair of new shoes fit and feel different after about 10 or 20 miles of walking?  How is that so different than the materials making up a headphone driver?

Sometimes the level of skepticism around here borders on absurdity, equally as much so as the snake-oil claims.  It's like the opposite pole of a magnet, which is no more realistic than superstition.  Life is somewhere in the middle.

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #17 –
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I think the issue can be quite easily resolved with an ABX test of a pair of burned-in cans with a pair straight out of the factory.

Perhaps so... anyone here have the $$ to buy 2 sets each of several brands?  And remember, you can only ABX once with each pair -- better make that 12 sets each of several brands...   

Break-in of audio components (especially those with moving parts which change with time) isn't exactly an "extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof" in the same respect as long, nonsensical Lame command lines -- afaic there are sound reasons (related to physics) why a vibrating diaphragm and associated moving parts will change characteristics after being used for awhile.

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #18 –
Still, you should burn-in most of the loudspeakers,
because they contain capacitors to split the output between loudspeakers.

Anyway, burning in shouldn't have much impact on the sound.

Yes, mechanical burn-in lasts for a few seconds.
ruxvilti'a

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #19 –
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(2) After a certain period of just pumping loud noise or music, one listens again and notices a major improvement in bass, midrange and treble response (again, not in question -- it's too much of an improvement).

It could be expectation bias, sort of placebo effect. Long-term auditory memory is not very reliable.

Quote
Sometimes the level of skepticism around here borders on absurdity, equally as much so as the snake-oil claims.  It's like the opposite pole of a magnet, which is no more realistic than superstition.  Life is somewhere in the middle.


Skepticism is good for true knowledge, and science is based on it. Professional speaker experts say that burning-in speakers is absurd, so unless somebody proves to me in a definitive way that burning-in headphones or speakers works, I prefer to trust those experts.

Edit: those experts say that every time you play music on a speaker, it experiments a burn-in that lasts a few seconds. Once the speaker remains quiet for few minutes and you play music again, that burn-in happens again. So, instead of a burn-in, it's some kind of warm-up.

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #20 –
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Yes, they may change the characteristic, but not much...
And you shouldn't play the noise or music too loud, because you could damage the diaphragms.
Making louder burn-in doesn't speed up the process.

Yes -- however, a small change can make a large difference in sound (perhaps we differ in that opinion -- that's ok).  Agreed about volume, but the "long term max input power" according to the manual is 500mW (I'm surely not pumping that much).

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #21 –
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Skepticism is good for true knowledge, and science is based on it. Professional speaker experts say that burning-in speakers is absurd, so unless somebody proves to me in a definitive way that burning-in headphones or speakers works, I prefer to trust those experts.

Edit: those experts say that every time you play music on a speaker, it experiments a burn-in that lasts a few seconds. Once the speaker remains quiet for few minutes and you play music again, that burn-in happens again. So, instead of a burn-in, it's some kind of warm-up.

Which speaker experts, the ones who write for Stereophile?    Maybe the ones that fit your definition of expert, and sound the most logical...

I really think issues like this are a matter of belief and opinion -- the "experts" in nearly every field are quibbling endlessly (and audio is no exception).  Theories keep getting "proven" and then "disproven" again a little later.  Skepticism is good (especially in light of that), but it can be overdone.

Anyway, this has diverged way off topic... I'm signing off on this thread.

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #22 –
Long term break-in effect depends on the properties of the material,
some change their properties when bent for some time, others don't.

Compare polyetylen (becomes easier to bend) and diamond.
ruxvilti'a

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #23 –
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Which speaker experts, the ones who write for Stereophile? 

No, the ones that *do* know about speaker engineering and physics, and *do* design speakers for commercial brands. Such as Richard D. Pierce, he's at the rec.audio.* newsgroups.

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  Maybe the ones that fit your definition of expert, and sound the most logical...


I think my definition of expert is quite trustworthy.

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I really think issues like this are a matter of belief and opinion


Nope. Things like these can be totally subjected to objective verification.

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-- the "experts" in nearly every field are quibbling endlessly (and audio is no exception).


That depends on you definition of expert.

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Theories keep getting "proven" and then "disproven" again a little later.


Science has taken man to the moon. Audio is quite less challenging.

Quote
Skepticism is good (especially in light of that), but it can be overdone.


It depends. A little bit of skepticism is not bad.

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Anyway, this has diverged way off topic... I'm signing off on this thread.


OK. I'll keep staying here.

Another Sennheiser HD-280 Pro thread

Reply #24 –
Anyway, fewtch, if you are driving your HD280 with the Audiophile line outs, it's possible that you get weak bass due to the low power reserve of the card line-outs. Try with a proper headphone output and see if the bass remains weak.