Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

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Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #25 – 2015-12-17 13:18:17

Can all audible differences be reproduced technically or is it possible for two devices that measure identically to sound different?

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #26 – 2015-12-17 14:11:34

Quote from: techboy on 2015-12-17 13:18:17

Can all audible differences be reproduced technically or is it possible for two devices that measure identically to sound different?

If all pertinent measurements are truly identical then there will be no audible difference.

It is not always obvious whether a measured difference will be audible.

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #27 – 2015-12-17 16:52:01

But aren't most well designed yet cheap DACs/AMPs today transparent if they aren't colored and adequately powered?

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #28 – 2015-12-17 16:53:18

If I understand right, a good amp is a wire with gain. So just to increase volume. Not to affect a transducer. Is this correct?

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #29 – 2015-12-17 16:57:51

Right, an ideal amplifier just puts out the amplified input signal, perfectly, regardless of load.

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #30 – 2015-12-17 17:36:19

And I believe an O2 ODAC combo is just that. Provided it isn't clipping. But I want to confirm whether the STX although measurably worse, is within the same audibly transparent domain while using cans that are greater than 80 ohm.

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #31 – 2015-12-17 21:49:38

Extremely unlikely to be any difference. Even 32 ohms would probably be tough with a lot of headphones

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #32 – 2015-12-17 22:49:43

Quote from: techboy on 2015-12-17 12:37:11

Senn HDVD 800, Lehmann Black Cube Linear, Graham Slee etc. Violectric, SPL, Beta22 etc.

Insn't the Lehmann Black Cube Linear the same thing as the Matrix M stage? That thing has too much distortion for some planar headphones.

Opamp's are always better and much much cheaper, the only way that a discrete amp performs better is when high voltages (Over 8 Vrms) or high current (300 mA or more) are needed, you will only need that for speakers. And you wont even need half of that current for the HE-6, they just need 5 Vrms, that's 94 mA for the HE-6. I don't want to image the distortion in that thing...

And the Graham Slee solo has an output impedance of 120 Ohm... That EQs the HD800 +1 dB from 80 Hz to 120 Hz. That may make them sound "warmer" so they think that the STX sounds sibilant.

So, it is either high distortion, high output impedance or just pure and tough placebo that they hear.

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #33 – 2015-12-18 05:03:15

1. Lehmann BCL is very different from Matrix. Matrix is a cheap distorted knock off. Lehmann is flat and neutral.

2. Lehmann is recommended for HD 650/800, not planars.

3. How about Violectric and Senn HDVD 800 and HDVD 600?

4. How about higher Graham Slee?

5. So I can safely assume STX and Benchmark 1 are the same in the audible domain as far as HD 800 is concerned?

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #34 – 2015-12-18 05:41:49

Quote from: techboy on 2015-12-18 05:03:15

1. Lehmann BCL is very different from Matrix. Matrix is a cheap distorted knock off. Lehmann is flat and neutral.

2. Lehmann is recommended for HD 650/800, not planars.

3. How about Violectric and Senn HDVD 800 and HDVD 600?

4. How about higher Graham Slee?

5. So I can safely assume STX and Benchmark 1 are the same in the audible domain as far as HD 800 is concerned?

1. Ok, sorry. xD

2. At this price point the amp should perform great with whatever headphone you throw at it. (forget the AKG K1000)

3. Couldn't find useful data about those.

4. Same as above.

5. Yes, if you want more proof, the guys of tomshardware conducted a blind test between the STX, 02+ODAC, Benchmark DAC II and the ALC898 of a Rampage III Formula, using a pair of HD800.
They couldn't tell them apart, and they just could differentiate the ALC889 because they made a mistake while matching gains (I still can't believe that they used a SPL meter instead of a multimeter ), once they fixed that, the ALC898 was indistinguishable, that might give you an idea of how high impedance headphones are the less demanding ones.

Link

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #35 – 2015-12-18 06:03:00

Sure.

Also, HE6 is a low impedance phone. And STX has a high output impedance. Is that a problem with planars like He6 and LcD2 as well?

Also, what do you think of Asus Essence One Muses Edition and Garage1217 Project Ember? The measurements of both are online.

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #36 – 2015-12-18 07:21:13

Quote from: techboy on 2015-12-18 06:03:00

Sure.

Also, HE6 is a low impedance phone. And STX has a high output impedance. Is that a problem with planars like He6 and LcD2 as well?

Also, what do you think of Asus Essence One Muses Edition and Garage1217 Project Ember? The measurements of both are online.

Is not a problem for the HE-6, (See the first graph that I posted in the first page) the STX reaches 5 Vrms into 56 Ohm with the THD under 0.01%. What happens there is that those 5 Vrms into 56 Ohm with a output impedance of 12 Ohm are actually 6 Vrms, we lose 1 Vrms due to the voltage divider effect, but again nothing to worry about if the card already reaches 5 Vrms.

The LCD2 is way easier to drive, altough there are many revisions on Innerfidelity, the ones that seems to be the hardest to drive among them are the LCD2-Rev2 which need 0.72 Vrms to reach 100 dB SPL peak... And there are not damping factor issues, those headphones due their type of driver (planar magnetic) don't need electrical damping AFAIK and their impedance is completely flat, so there's nothing to worry about, only that a high output impedance can limit the max output of the amp into that low impedance loads, which is not the case in the STX.

Headphones that could be an issue for the STX are basically all low impedance headphones that that don't use planar magnetic drivers (which is 99% of the headphones), Fidelio X2, 518, AD900, many IEMs. etc. They could be affected due to a low damping factor or due to their variable impedance (518 case) that is EQed due to a voltage divider effect. That's is why I want you to conduct a blind test between your STX and the Iphone, so you can determine if you can noticed that +1 dB boost @90 Hz on the 518 or the damping factor of 3.

Another problem could be the HE-4 that I've already talked about.

At least link the measurements, these are the ones that I've found about the Essence One Muses: Link

But they didn't conduct any load tests, pretty useless really, those measurements basically tell you how the card behaves as a DAC connected to a amp. And really I wanna see the measurements of the ember because it is a TUBE amp.

This is basically how tube amps behave:

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #37 – 2015-12-18 08:15:55

Long story short, as long as I stick to HD 600/650/800 the STX and O2/ODAC are the same? As long as volume is the same? Is that confirmed through measurements?

And all the Headfi talk of ODAC O2 being cleaner, more detailed, faster is wrong? Both are 100% audibly transparent to any human ear?

I'm not talking of low impedance cans. Just those that are either planar or dynamic but between 80 ohm and 600 ohm?

And if the O2 and ODAC sound the same as the Benchmark 1 then the STX should sound ditto same as well? Except where measurements come into play like IEMs?

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #38 – 2015-12-18 08:18:08

And I assume STX has no issues with noise from the PC, background noise, distortion, crackling, interference etc?

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #39 – 2015-12-18 09:18:56

I'm confirming for the last time Phoenix. Please reply. If both are audibly transparent as far as the amp and DAC is concerned, I'm all set and dint need to waste money. Please reply. wrt to HD 650, 600, 700, 800 I meant. And other planars. And others headphones over 80 ohm. Only.

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #40 – 2015-12-18 09:29:23

Quote from: techboy on 2015-12-18 09:18:56

I'm confirming for the last time Phoenix. Please reply. If both are audibly transparent as far as the amp and DAC is concerned, I'm all set and dint need to waste money. Please reply. wrt to HD 650, 600, 700, 800 I meant. And other planars. And others headphones over 80 ohm. Only.

Eh? Man dont take that too serius, really, I feel that you are not comfortable with your current setup. None worries that much about his STX.

Those who claim that can hear a difference should go to an AES convention a show them their abilities by ABXing the STX and the ODAC/O2 using said headphones. They will be famous and probably will get their genome sequenced. You can be 99% sure that they wont hear any difference as long as the measurements where done correctly, but to confirm it completely you have to do an ABX test (Which tomshardware's already done). Until someone demonstrates that he/she can noticed that while the measurements say that he wouldn't, there's nothing to worry about.

Dont say a impedance range, there are headphones under 80 Ohm that are not affected by that, it depends on the headphones, altough the ones that you mention wont be affected.

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #41 – 2015-12-18 10:58:00

Muses Measurements

There is an audible difference between STX and Muses. Since I own both. Is the Muses better or worse according to measurements? Is the Muses colored/less trasnsparent/less hi Fi?

http://www.stereophile.com/content/asus-xo...er-measurements

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/asus-...-gear-important

http://archimago.blogspot.in/2013/02/measu...ssence-one.html

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/asus/1.html

I can 100% confirm the Muses sounds different from an STX. But which is transparent and which is colored, i.e. measurably better?

And the difference in sound isn't huge, but the sound signature is definitely slightly different in both.

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #42 – 2015-12-18 12:22:13

Quote from: techboy on 2015-12-18 10:58:00

Muses Measurements

There is an audible difference between STX and Muses. Since I own both. Is the Muses better or worse according to measurements? Is the Muses colored/less trasnsparent/less hi Fi?

http://www.stereophile.com/content/asus-xo...er-measurements

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/asus-...-gear-important

http://archimago.blogspot.in/2013/02/measu...ssence-one.html

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/asus/1.html

I can 100% confirm the Muses sounds different from an STX. But which is transparent and which is colored, i.e. measurably better?

And the difference in sound isn't huge, but the sound signature is definitely slightly different in both.

There's just one measurement of the headphone out in the stereophile review and it is with a load of 300 Ohm (basically HD650 xD). And that's completely transparent. But, disable the oversampling thing, it roll-offs high frequencies, that must be the difference that you hear.

Archimago doesn't measure with loads... I've talked about that with him and he gently said no. xD

What am I supposed to read in the Inner's review? The worst part is that Tyll measures amps: Link

And I dont see the Essence One anywhere, that woulda helped a lot. And what's up with the "6moons" link? There aren't measurements either but, after seeing this: Link

I dont wanna read that, really. xD

Tell me if you still hear the difference after you disable the oversampling feature, and really, try a blind test, even if you are 200% sure.

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #43 – 2015-12-18 12:24:53

Yes. Even if I disable Upsampling, E1 Muses is a lot warmer and less treble than STX. Even without Upsampling.

And from what I've read, STX measures much better than E1 Muses.

Also Muses seems thinner and lighter.

They are different but not hugely so, but audibly different.

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #44 – 2015-12-18 12:25:42

Since b22 has been mentioned, keep in mind that amb's measurements are fake, deliberate misinformation. This had already been pointed out to him years ago (the "mini3 fiasko") but his fake measurements are still up, unchanged to this day. Just recently Bob Katz measured an M3 that again showed that his measurements have to be fake.

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #45 – 2015-12-18 12:28:45

I found the b22 very warm, that gave it its naturalness. So is it not transparent like Benchmark or O2 say?

Also, b22 bass was really tight and hard hitting.

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #46 – 2015-12-18 12:30:01

And it is the Muses DAC that is colored. Not the amp.

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #47 – 2015-12-18 12:53:37

Quote from: techboy on 2015-12-18 12:24:53

Yes. Even if I disable Upsampling, E1 Muses is a lot warmer and less treble than STX. Even without Upsampling.

And from what I've read, STX measures much better than E1 Muses.

Also Muses seems thinner and lighter.

They are different but not hugely so, but audibly different.

How did you perform the blind test? If I'm not wrong you dont even have a switch box, aren't I? Are those the default opamps of the Essence one? And the worst part is that you say that you hear it in the opamp that isn't the buffer one.

And the b22 isn't transparent, the fact that it is a discrete amp says a lot.

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #48 – 2015-12-18 13:11:44

No blind test. But the Muses is noticeably colored. And the Muses opamps are in the dac section. Not the Amp section. The amp in the STX and Muses is the same. The DAC is different.

Asus STX vs O2/ODAC

Reply #49 – 2015-12-18 13:16:08

Coming to the end, all transparent gear sounds the same, right? Doesn't matter what measures better/worse, either it is transparent or it is not for a given load/situation, right?

So if Asus STX is transparent, and Asus STX II is also transparent, they are audibly the same? If STX II sounds different, it is either placebo or it is colored, but definitely not better than STX I because you can't better transparent, right?

So until I get phones that are 32 ohm or IEMs, I am done right? Nothing to worry about?

No point getting carried over Muses or Ember. Both are slightly different but audibly colored. Even headfi considers them as colored as it gets.

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