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Topic: Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings (Read 25852 times) previous topic - next topic
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Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Hi everyone,

If I recorded a vinyl LP through this process:

Turntable --> ARC Phono Stage --> Nagra LB A/D Converter (Set at 24/192) --> Adobe Audition (Laptop)

Would removing the noise of the vinyl and manually removing clicks and pops (in Audition) negatively affect other areas of the music?

Thanks,
Kogami

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #1 –
I've not used Audition, currently using GoldWave.  I find that if you're careful not to over-set the click/pop filter, it's pretty good.  Hiss removal also works pretty well.  You should try it and compare the results before and after to see what you prefer.

jay

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #2 –
When digitising vinyl, cleaning the record first saves a lot of mouse-work once it is in the digital domain.

Applying built-in filters to the whole file can have effects. I don't know Audition, but in Audacity, the declick filter can mess up some your high frequencies in some music, especially if it is a percussion-heavy track.

I use declicker and fade-outs/ins plus silencing for the space between tracks, but prefer to remove clicks and pops individually when I find them in the music. Zoom in, select click/pop, delete, then listen to the result to make sure.

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #3 –
Quote from: JabbaThePrawn on
...

Zoom in, select click/pop, delete, then listen to the result to make sure.


Some software may add (fast) fade-out/in to the cut point (as default) ... is it better w/o these fades (i.e. try select cut area so that the resulting gain is about the same in both ends (!on both channels) (and use glue tool for to join the ends)) or ...?




 

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #4 –
Quote
Would removing the noise of the vinyl and manually removing clicks and pops (in Audition) negatively affect other areas of the music?
I assume no.  I don't have Audition, but anything you do manually will only affect the waveform where you "touch it".

I use Wave Repair ($30 USD) .  One of the things I like about it is that it only touches the audio where I identify a defect.  In fact, saving the modified file is very fast because it only re-writes the changes.  It offers several different repair methods and most clicks & pops can be removed "perfectly".

The downside is that it usually takes me a full weekend to clean-up a digitized vinyl recording, and I'm going to try something more automated next time.

Quote
(Set at 24/192)
There's nothing wrong with that, but it's total overkill for analog vinyl.      Short story....  CDs (16/44.1) are better than human hearing.  Analog vinyl is worse than human hearing.  (Wave Repair doesn't work with high resolution audio, so it's probably not for you.)

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #5 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Quote
Would removing the noise of the vinyl and manually removing clicks and pops (in Audition) negatively affect other areas of the music?
I assume no.  I don't have Audition, but anything you do manually will only affect the waveform where you "touch it".

I use Wave Repair ($30 USD) .  One of the things I like about it is that it only touches the audio where I identify a defect.  In fact, saving the modified file is very fast because it only re-writes the changes.  It offers several different repair methods and most clicks & pops can be removed "perfectly".

The downside is that it usually takes me a full weekend to clean-up a digitized vinyl recording, and I'm going to try something more automated next time.

Quote
(Set at 24/192)
There's nothing wrong with that, but it's total overkill for analog vinyl.      Short story....  CDs (16/44.1) are better than human hearing.  Analog vinyl is worse than human hearing.  (Wave Repair doesn't work with high resolution audio, so it's probably not for you.)


The thing is, 24/192 while it is often criticized for being "frequency overkill" it is not "detail overkill" and besides. If I/they want a 16/44.1 file, they can easily downsample it, but it's impossible to get lost data back, and many DACs have a sweet spot around 24/192

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Kogami on
The thing is, 24/192 while it is often criticized for being "frequency overkill" it is not "detail overkill"


It is both, especially when the source is something that is as full of audible distortion and noise and has has such limited resolution as a LP.

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Kogami on
The thing is, 24/192 while it is often criticized for being "frequency overkill" it is not "detail overkill"


It is both, especially when the source is something that is as full of audible distortion and noise and has has such limited resolution as a LP.


Actually, the LP has unlimited resolution if it is mastered from analogue, and that resolution is especially audible on 45s, and well-mastered pressings.

EDIT : Spelling

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Kogami on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Kogami on
The thing is, 24/192 while it is often criticized for being "frequency overkill" it is not "detail overkill"


It is both, especially when the source is something that is as full of audible distortion and noise and has has such limited resolution as a LP.


Actually, the LP has unlimited resolution if it is mastered from analogue,


This is nonsense.  The resolution of an analog device is limited by its SNR, same as a digital one.  You can calculate the effective number of bits for an analog source using the familiar 1 bit per 6.02 dB SNR formula. 

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #9 –
deleted

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #10 –
If use a top quality cartridge and a top quality stylus, on a top quality LP record, from a fine quality master, in good condition, you really do have an excellent signal to noise ratio, even better than the phono preamp you must use to hear it... If only it stayed that way once you start the platter's rotation.

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #11 –
Addressing the OP:

IMHO, post-processing to reduce the continuous background noise of vinyl (not the transient clicks & pops) is too risky. A fair amount of that noise is in the lower midrange, so it's easy to accidentally run the most audible parts of the music through the grinder. You also have to declick first or the clicks & pops turn into "pingy" sounds. I won't say I haven't done some noise reduction when cleaning some old classical LPs, but a loud rock LP or dance 12" just doesn't benefit enough to make it worthwhile. I tell myself that the noise, if audible, is part of the charm.

Now for the distraction:

Quote from: Kogami on
Actually, the LP has unlimited resolution if it is mastered from analogue

The audio on most vinyl has been digitized, even if sourced from tape. From our vinyl myths page:

Since the mid-1970s, vinyl mastering houses have been using digital delay lines (DDLs) instead of analog delays on the signal going to the lathe that cuts the spiral groove. So even in the increasingly unlikely event that 100% of the recording, mixing and mastering was done entirely using analog gear and media, the end of the vinyl mastering process may well have involved a conversion to digital and back. [a href='index.php?showtopic=105321'][source][/a]

Also explained in the wiki and in xiphmont's Show & Tell video is that there is no need for infinite frequency resolution. The sampling theorem assures us (and is readily proven) that sampling at a given rate fully, perfectly preserves every part of the signal from 0 Hz to all the way up to one-half the sample rate. Whatever parts of the groove are in between the sampled points, then, effectively would only contribute to audio above that half-the-sample-rate frequency.

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Kogami on
Hi everyone,

If I recorded a vinyl LP through this process:

Turntable --> ARC Phono Stage --> Nagra LB A/D Converter (Set at 24/192) --> Adobe Audition (Laptop)

Would removing the noise of the vinyl and manually removing clicks and pops (in Audition) negatively affect other areas of the music?

Thanks,
Kogami

I don't have Audition, but I do have CoolEdit2000 with the audio-cleanup plugin, and I believe the click/pop eliminator is the same algorithm in both. (Audition evolved out of CoolEdit Pro). I'd say that this particular click/pop filter is among the better ones out there and produces less collateral damage than some others. However, it *will* mangle some things, most noticeably brass and reed instuments (eg. trumpets, saxophones), some percussion, and some synth patches. You'd be better off using its "fill single click" facility to kill individual clicks manually.

The broadband noise reduction facility is a good example of its kind, but for vinyl surface noise (low level crackle and "hash") there is a more effective strategy, commonly referred to as the "Younglove Procedure". See here for a discussion of how it works.

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #13 –
Hello Kogami,

I've tried removing clicks and pops manualy but since it is so much work and the results where not satisfying to me, I moved to a software called ClickRepair. It's a small application for 40 USD which does the job very nicely. It is not that cheap for a small Java application but in my opinion it is worth every penny.

I've also tried removing the background noise of vinyl with various software. But every thing I tried degraded the musical contend, so I decided to leave the background noise alone.

Cheers
Christian

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #14 –
Quote from: doubleXP on
Hello Kogami,

I've tried removing clicks and pops manualy but since it is so much work and the results where not satisfying to me, I moved to a software called ClickRepair. It's a small application for 40 USD which does the job very nicely. It is not that cheap for a small Java application but in my opinion it is worth every penny.

I've also tried removing the background noise of vinyl with various software. But every thing I tried degraded the musical contend, so I decided to leave the background noise alone.

Cheers
Christian

Dealing with clicks and pops manually is a chore, but automating the process always seems to affect the sound quality and miss some of the bigger pops, so you have to do those individually after all.

It's a tedious process with a dirty LP, so clean the vinyl as best you can before recording. I've kept my LPs pretty well over the years, so only a few were really hard work.

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #15 –
TheWellTemperedComputer.com

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #16 –
Quote from: JabbaThePrawn on
Quote from: doubleXP on
Hello Kogami,

I've tried removing clicks and pops manualy but since it is so much work and the results where not satisfying to me, I moved to a software called ClickRepair. It's a small application for 40 USD which does the job very nicely. It is not that cheap for a small Java application but in my opinion it is worth every penny.

I've also tried removing the background noise of vinyl with various software. But every thing I tried degraded the musical contend, so I decided to leave the background noise alone.

Cheers
Christian

Dealing with clicks and pops manually is a chore, but automating the process always seems to affect the sound quality and miss some of the bigger pops, so you have to do those individually after all.

It's a tedious process with a dirty LP, so clean the vinyl as best you can before recording. I've kept my LPs pretty well over the years, so only a few were really hard work.


Adding my voice to the manual laborers. I haven't digitized a huge amount of my vinyl so I can't attest to the workload of going over an entire collection. But I've had the same experience with automation as some in this thread. It seems to affect the tonality of the music and is (at least for me) hard or simply impossible to tune right.

I haven't tried any of the non-free software so it might be more gentle. But for the hobbyist and enthusiast aspect of it I prefer to get as clean a rip as possible and then I just normalize and look for the peaks. Manually repair/edit the clicks and pops and normalize again until the peaks are just the music. This might be regarded as a travesty among purists but it does the job for my purpouse of digitizing tracks that aren't available digitally.

I use audacity and the manual draw tool plus the "repair" function that evens out very small snippets of the soundfile. And as someone mentioned I leave any bacground noise like crackle alone since in my opinion it's part of the "vinyl charm" and attempting to remove it degrades the overall sound at least with free tools.

It might seem like it's "too much" work to scour a file and listen to it repeatedly but the bonus is that you get more comfortable and skilled with your sound processing software as you get better at it. Personal preference obviously plays a part in what method you choose but I lean towards the personal reward of going "behind the curtain" and in the process acquiring basic audio editing skills that can be applied to other tasks.

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #17 –
Quote from: JabbaThePrawn on
Dealing with clicks and pops manually is a chore, but automating the process always seems to affect the sound quality and miss some of the bigger pops, so you have to do those individually after all.

That's why I recommend ClickRepair. It can be set to a, let's call it half automatic process where you can ether accept or decline repairs of clicks and pops above a certain level. It also can be set to different levels of detection.

There is a 21 days test-period so there is no harm in trying it out. The only thing is, you need a Java runtime environment installed on your computer to run the ClickRepair software and the default DeClick setting of 50 is much to high. I would start at a setting of 30 or below.

Cheers
Christian

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Kogami on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Kogami on
The thing is, 24/192 while it is often criticized for being "frequency overkill" it is not "detail overkill"


It is both, especially when the source is something that is as full of audible distortion and noise and has has such limited resolution as a LP.


Actually, the LP has unlimited resolution if it is mastered from analogue, and that resolution is especially audible on 45s, and well-mastered pressings.

EDIT : Spelling


Simply not true.

First off, nothing in the real universe has unlimited anything. Scientists tell us that even the Universe has bounds, so anything that is in the universe has bounds and is not unlimited. Infinity is just a concept.

Secondly, the LP has relatively poor dynamic range, which makes it among the lower resolution audio media around. The audible noise that is an inherent part of LP playback is absolute proof that the LP has finite and even relatively poor resolution.

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #19 –
We have all sorts of ways to measure sound quality: rumble, speed accuracy, wow and flutter, hum, noise, dynamic range, frequency range*, frequency deviation, various distortions, stereo separation, etc., and in comparing CD to LP  the CD wins out in not some, but rather every single category we know how to measure.


*CDs, even on a cheap portable Discman, comfortably go from 1Hz to 22.04999 kHz without breaking a sweat. In perfect conditions using a special cutting lathe, at half speed, on special super vinyl, played with certain Shibata stylii, through an extended range phono pre-amp, we might be able to get a few LP playbacks of slightly higher, say 24/25kHZ (with a lot more level deviation to get there, which is likely audible), but that has no value to human perception and these ultra high frequencies (inaudible to the ear anyways and never intentionally placed on the record in the first place since they don't exist on the master tape) are often mutilated after only a few plays.

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #20 –
Personally, what I've done with my vinyl rips is to apply very minimal processing. My goal when doing NR on vinyl rips is foremost to preserve the music. I prefer the safer approach if there is a question whether the music will be negatively affected. I use a pop filter that's set to catch the loudest pops while leaving the smaller ones alone (and presumably the music as well). I use Goldwave's pop/click filter for that, but I've never compared different filters. If you don't mind spending the time, software that lets you highlight the pop and apply the filter only there, would be the best.

Trying to apply noise reduction beyond pop/click has always resulted in more harm than good in my experience, but there may be better software or techniques out there that I'm not aware of.


It might be obvious, but it bears mentioning: you may want to keep a permanent copy of your UNedited rip in addition to the copy with NR/EQ applied to it. That way, if you find something's been messed up with the post-processing, you can go back to the unedited version without having to do another record cleaning and needle drop.

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #21 –
I always used Click Fix Click and Pop Removal for Cool Edit Pro to fix vinyl recordings.
but...
Recently I recorded a 7" vinyl single and afterwards listened to the digital file very carefully using headphones. I could only hear 5 clicks! So I decided to remove the clicks manually and saved the file.
After that, out of curiousity I tried Click Fix Click and Pop Removal on the same original digital file: 3264 clicks removed!! 
I'm sure it removes a lot more than clicks alone, so be careful with click/pop removal-software.

Apart from this, I always make sure I record loud enough, music peaks between -1dB and 0dB, so, no normalisation or amplification is needed afterwards. I don't use noise reduction, I like the vinyl sound  without clicks!

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #22 –
Quote
Apart from this, I always make sure I record loud enough, music peaks between -1dB and 0dB...
That's not easy to do unless you record 2 or 3 times 'till you get the levels right.      And if you are hitting 0dB you are probably clipping, and you may not know because your ADC is limited to 0dB and it will never go over.  If I have 0dB peaks I assume it's clipped and I start-over (unless the 0dB peak is a "click".)  If you are getting peaks between -6 and -3dB, that's fine.    Pros using low noise 24-bit ADCs typically record around -12 or -18dB. 

Quote
...so, no normalisation or amplification is needed afterwards
There's nothing wrong with normalization or a little amplification.

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #23 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Quote
Apart from this, I always make sure I record loud enough, music peaks between -1dB and 0dB...
That's not easy to do unless you record 2 or 3 times 'till you get the levels right.      And if you are hitting 0dB you are probably clipping, and you may not know because your ADC is limited to 0dB and it will never go over.  If I have 0dB peaks I assume it's clipped and I start-over (unless the 0dB peak is a "click".)  If you are getting peaks between -6 and -3dB, that's fine.    Pros using low noise 24-bit ADCs typically record around -12 or -18dB. 

Quote
...so, no normalisation or amplification is needed afterwards
There's nothing wrong with normalization or a little amplification.

TotalRecorder has a wizard that is useful for setting recording levels, once you've found a bit of a record that sounds like the loudest section. I'm not so keen on TotalRecorder for recording/editing, though, so once the level is set I use Audacity.

Removing Noise in Vinyl Recordings

Reply #24 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
And if you are hitting 0dB you are probably clipping, and you may not know because your ADC is limited to 0dB and it will never go over.  If I have 0dB peaks I assume it's clipped and I start-over (unless the 0dB peak is a "click".)  If you are getting peaks between -6 and -3dB, that's fine.


Agreed. Just eyeballing it, it's apparent my soundcard has a limiter kicking in around -3 dB (no idea how to find out precisely though), so I try not to record with peaks above that. As it turns out, ReplayGain's target volume is usually right around there anyway.