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Topic: mp3gain + mp3s with few spikes/transients (Read 8184 times) previous topic - next topic
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mp3gain + mp3s with few spikes/transients

Hello,

I just mp3gain-ed my music library, 96dB, no clipping allowed, 1/3 files are okay with it, 1/3 are 1.5-3db quieter, and 1/3 are a few decibels quieter.

Anyway, since I went the opposite route and made things as loud AND equal as possible (96db target), there are those files that would clip, so they stayed a few decibels lower, no biggie.

However, a few, actually this one in particular, is driving me insane:



It has a transient/spike once that is ~8db louder than the rest of the other peaks in the song!

So, my options are:

  - I could manually push 1.5-3dBs over the line, but I'd like to avoid clipping, even if it's unhearable.
  - edit it in an audio editor, but that's destructive editing.
  - somehow get mp3gain to limit and/or normalize the file, possibly via command line, since I don't see any options in GUI?



What's your recommendation?

mp3gain + mp3s with few spikes/transients

Reply #1 –
You'll have to decide between either clipping the spike or having the volume be unequal.  Since the spike is probably just a bad recording or encoding, I would let it clip, either by not using the "prevent clipping" option, or just manually setting the peak value to whatever it is minus the spike.

mp3gain + mp3s with few spikes/transients

Reply #2 –
I also edit the peak value in situations like this. Luckily they are rare.
lame3995o -Q1.7 --lowpass 17

mp3gain + mp3s with few spikes/transients

Reply #3 –
Quote from: saratoga on
Since the spike is probably just a bad recording or encoding
It might be, but many classical and jazz recordings just leave the peaks as-is. Having one peak 6dB higher than all the rest is quite normal for an unprocessed recording. Unprocessed real life isn't particularly consistent. Your idea that music is weird if it has peaks well above average loudness only holds for modern pop music.


The best way to decide what to do with it is to listen to it.

Cheers,
David.

mp3gain + mp3s with few spikes/transients

Reply #4 –
I tried going the right route and setting all to 89dB.

Yes, it's great and all that, however, what I notice is things like VLC or my phone need to be boosted - it's not even a problem in itself, but I expected that on 100% volume sliders in Windows and VLC (and without touching my preferred headphone setting), everything is too quiet.

It kinda stands against logic that you equalize loudness only too find it that everything modern expects things to be louder to begin with (yes, I know, loudness wars, but still).

I will try boosting to 92 - thats +3dB above 89dB, and I expect a small number of audio files to complain about possible clipping, and 92dB should be loud enough without boosting stuff.

mp3gain + mp3s with few spikes/transients

Reply #5 –
Quote from: 2mg on
I will try boosting to 92 - thats +3dB above 89dB, and I expect a small number of audio files to complain about possible clipping, and 92dB should be loud enough without boosting stuff.


Still too quiet 

Dammit all, I'll push all to 95 or 96 without clipping, then apply +1.5 or maybe even +3 to all other that would clip otherwise, that should cover most stuff...

mp3gain + mp3s with few spikes/transients

Reply #6 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Quote from: saratoga on
Since the spike is probably just a bad recording or encoding
It might be, but many classical and jazz recordings just leave the peaks as-is.


You are entitled to your opinion, but I feel pretty comfortable thinking that a single 8 dB transient is probably just a glitch in the recording or a decoder error.

Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Your idea that music is weird if it has peaks well above average loudness only holds for modern pop music.


I don't even remember that thread, but since you bring it up, this file would seem to be an obvious example of what I (apparently) warned against in that thread.  If you use clipping protection on this file, the gain would be off by 10dB.  Again, its just my opinion, but I'd probably prefer an almost certainly inaudible clipping of a transient rather than the entire track being off by 10dB. 

mp3gain + mp3s with few spikes/transients

Reply #7 –
Try soft limiter or dynamic range compressor. Pick appropriate threshold that doesn't affect most part of the song but can effectively kill seldom spikes.

mp3gain + mp3s with few spikes/transients

Reply #8 –
Quote from: nu774 on
Try soft limiter or dynamic range compressor. Pick appropriate threshold that doesn't affect most part of the song but can effectively kill seldom spikes.


Yeah, that'd do on few of those like I posted above but...

I actually started sorting out my music library with Audacity chain/batch processing, but it's a slow process, it creates a new copy (I can't find out how to open, modify and save the same file with chains), plus I can't simply set it on the whole folder, a lot of songs need no touching...

I'll either settle to 89dB, or do a few "as-same-as-possible-maybe-with-clipping" with mp3gain.

mp3gain + mp3s with few spikes/transients

Reply #9 –
Quote from: 2mg on
I tried going the right route and setting all to 89dB.
FWIW I went for 93dB on an old mp3 player. Clipping prevention by album, not by track. Modern/loud recordings get tamed by ~6dB. Old/quiet recordings get turned up as much as they can. It's not loudness equalisation - it just tames some of the excesses.

Quote
Yes, it's great and all that, however, what I notice is things like VLC or my phone need to be boosted - it's not even a problem in itself, but I expected that on 100% volume sliders in Windows and VLC (and without touching my preferred headphone setting), everything is too quiet.

It kinda stands against logic that you equalize loudness only too find it that everything modern expects things to be louder to begin with (yes, I know, loudness wars, but still).
I'm not surprised a phone goes usefully louder with full scale music, but I'm surprised you have a problem on a PC. Are you plugging (insensitive?) headphones straight into a (low level?) sound card. I've always fed my PC through something else, and always had plenty of gain. The bigger problem with a "low" RpelayGain/mp3gain level on a PC is the relative loudness of all the other sounds you can't/don't fix (system sounds, Youtube, etc). There are ways around most of that, kind of.


I wouldn't run everything through audacity. It's re-encoding as mp3 when you save (lowering quality), and it seems a waste of time. Maybe just do it if you hear a problem.

You can try just letting everything clip and listen to the results. You can always re-run mp3gain at a lower level (and/or with clipping prevention enabled) to get rid of the clipping later if you don't like it. Or you could fix whatever part of your listening chain is making everything so quiet. On most equipment/systems (ignoring phone speakers) it should be possible to get tracks that have been ReplayGained to 96dB to play back at deafening levels.

The thing that stopped me (!) using ReplayGain for a while was an mp3 player with an EU loudness limiter built in, and Sennheiser HD580 headphones. Non-loudness war music was often too quiet on that, and ReplayGain just made everything too quiet. With the loudness limiter defeated, and different headphone, I couldn't stand the volume at full - even with ReplayGain at 89dB.

Cheers,
David.

mp3gain + mp3s with few spikes/transients

Reply #10 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Quote from: 2mg on
I tried going the right route and setting all to 89dB.
FWIW I went for 93dB on an old mp3 player. Clipping prevention by album, not by track. Modern/loud recordings get tamed by ~6dB. Old/quiet recordings get turned up as much as they can. It's not loudness equalisation - it just tames some of the excesses.

Quote
Yes, it's great and all that, however, what I notice is things like VLC or my phone need to be boosted - it's not even a problem in itself, but I expected that on 100% volume sliders in Windows and VLC (and without touching my preferred headphone setting), everything is too quiet.

It kinda stands against logic that you equalize loudness only too find it that everything modern expects things to be louder to begin with (yes, I know, loudness wars, but still).
I'm not surprised a phone goes usefully louder with full scale music, but I'm surprised you have a problem on a PC. Are you plugging (insensitive?) headphones straight into a (low level?) sound card. I've always fed my PC through something else, and always had plenty of gain. The bigger problem with a "low" RpelayGain/mp3gain level on a PC is the relative loudness of all the other sounds you can't/don't fix (system sounds, Youtube, etc). There are ways around most of that, kind of.


I wouldn't run everything through audacity. It's re-encoding as mp3 when you save (lowering quality), and it seems a waste of time. Maybe just do it if you hear a problem. And none of the Windows/drivers enhancing mumbo jumbo, everything's at 100%, pure.

You can try just letting everything clip and listen to the results. You can always re-run mp3gain at a lower level (and/or with clipping prevention enabled) to get rid of the clipping later if you don't like it. Or you could fix whatever part of your listening chain is making everything so quiet. On most equipment/systems (ignoring phone speakers) it should be possible to get tracks that have been ReplayGained to 96dB to play back at deafening levels.

The thing that stopped me (!) using ReplayGain for a while was an mp3 player with an EU loudness limiter built in, and Sennheiser HD580 headphones. Non-loudness war music was often too quiet on that, and ReplayGain just made everything too quiet. With the loudness limiter defeated, and different headphone, I couldn't stand the volume at full - even with ReplayGain at 89dB.

Cheers,
David.


Well, onboard soundcard's rear outputs plugged into a radio/line, which boosts signal for headphones, which are set to 90% max loudness. So, hardware problems are out of the question. And none of the Windows/drivers mumbo jumbo - 100% volume, pure.

That setup is usually almost too loud - when I change things, I go down, not up.

That 89dB reference gives music about ~6dB of headroom, which I guess is too quiet for "play it out of the box" things, like VLC on 100% volume (which prompts the problem about videos being "cinema ready" and having huge audio differences).

Please, don't get me wrong, setting volume knobs once because I used mp3gain is not a problem, it's just weird.

BTW I settled for 95dB - I got an HQ Youtube mp3, when I checked it in mp3gain, it was on 97dB, Audacity says that it has 1db of headroom, and compared to other 89dB songs, well, I guess if I do find something clipping badly, I'll just re-acquire it somehow 

PS: I have a folder with a bunch of tracks, I used "Apply Track gain", but does "Apply Album gain" calculate things differently, is it useful for such folders?

mp3gain + mp3s with few spikes/transients

Reply #11 –
Quote
...but I expected that on 100% volume sliders in Windows and VLC (and without touching my preferred headphone setting), everything is too quiet.

It kinda stands against logic that you equalize loudness only too find it that everything modern expects things to be louder to begin with...


Actually, it's PERFECTLY LOGICAL once you understand a couple of things:

1. There is a "digital limit" of 0dBFS (Zero-Decibels Full Scale).  Your digital-to-analog converter is limited to 0dBFS, and many file formats are limited to 0dB.  If you try to go over, you'll get clipping (flat-topped distorted waves).    (This dBFS reference is the "normal" reference for a digital file and it's different from the 89 dBSPL reference used by MP3Gain.)

2. The peak (dBSPL or dBFS) correlates very poorly with loudness.  You often have quiet-sounding songs that have peaks hitting the 0dBFS limit. 

So, lets say you have 10 songs and you want to make them equally loud...  But, some of the quiet-sounding songs already have 0dBFS peaks so they can't be boosted without clipping.    The ONLY WAY way to match the loudness (without clipping) is to make the loud songs quieter.

Quote
PS: I have a folder with a bunch of tracks, I used "Apply Track gain", but does "Apply Album gain" calculate things differently, is it useful for such folders?
Album applies the same gain adjustment to all songs on an album.   That way, songs on the album that are supposed to be quieter remain quieter, and songs that are supposed to be louder remain louder.

mp3gain + mp3s with few spikes/transients

Reply #12 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Quote
PS: I have a folder with a bunch of tracks, I used "Apply Track gain", but does "Apply Album gain" calculate things differently, is it useful for such folders?
Album applies the same gain adjustment to all songs on an album.   That way, songs on the album that are supposed to be quieter remain quieter, and songs that are supposed to be louder remain louder.


But unless it calculates a median loudness value per album/folder, it is the same Track Gain does?

PS: I am fully aware of 0dB limits and overall loudness vs volume peaks  and why quieting down is the right choice, I just didn't expect it to be so low (even though it was 83 before) - googling reveals that a lot of users have 92-96 settings.