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Topic: Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture (Read 6436 times) previous topic - next topic
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Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

This post will probably be blocked by some high-minded moderator whose role is to maintain only most worthy discussion topics.  I'm not even sure I have a question.  It may be that the main purpose of this post is to vent my frustration; and if the mere act of composing it serves that purpose, it will have been worth the effort, because frankly, based on previous blog discussions I've read, I am NOT expecting any sort of satisfactory response or resolution.  In fact, based on previous blog dialogs I've seen, I'm not even expecting a reply from high-powered Foobar2000 users that would indicate they understand, or in any way sympathize.  Most of the people who would presumably be best qualified to post an informed response seem unable even to understand what is problematic about the way Foobar2000 creates, displays, and stores playlists, playback queue, and related issues.   

It's just that it's such a terrible shame that such a great music player, that is perfect in so many other ways, and has so many wonderful, customizable features, without having tons of unwanted CRUD associated with it, should be so tragically flawed by the absence of any logical, intuitive system for selecting, editing the songs you want to hear.  I have read any number of questions that have been posted in various forums over the course of many years, and apparently it never gets any better.    The best I can say is that Foobar2000 pretty much sucks in lacking this capability.  At the same time, most (all?) power users seem either indifferent to the problem, or have resigned themselves to it.  Mostly, I suspect that power users are so in love with, or titillated by, all the  customizable features of Foobar2000, that the fact that it can't perform such a basic (yet useful) function simply doesn't particularly interest or trouble them.  Sorry if I'm being unfair, but that's definitely the impression I've gotten. 

Assuming my current comment IS posted, and that someone is reading them because they are searching for an answer how to handle playlists and the queue, just accept the likelihood that you will spend a lot of time researching this topic, as I have done, add all sorts of clever new components, and come out no better than you are now.  Any belief that there MUST be a logical solution somewhere, but that you just haven't found it yet, is a chimera.  So far, I was playing just one song, or selection at a time.  Everything was fine.  Then, I tried to figure out how to put together a list of songs to play.   

Disaster. 

Simply stated, Foobar2000 lacks an editable list of songs queued up to play...  and it's a tragic flaw.  I agree with other posters who have expressed the view that the information that would be needed to create such a list MUST reside somewhere...  yet is not used to create a list that would be easy to use.  Forget about selecting songs "on the fly" and adding them to those you've already selected.  There is a way to do it, IF you are playing a previously created "playlist".  You can append a new song to the end of this list, then manually move it into position to follow the song that's playing....  but there's no easy way to create a list that you c As soon as you select a new song, it appears in it's own ephemeral "playlist"  If you switch to that one, your position in the previous list is lost.  No going back.  [Note: Don't try to make sense out of what I've just written.  I keep testing out what I'm saying to make sure I'm correct, then find I'm wrong, then try typing something else, then finding that THAT's wrong.  The only thing that is consistent is that it is baffling.]   

The "Playback Queue" is NOT a playback queue by any reasonable description.  It is, rather, the equivalent of a terrorist with semi-automatic rifle that wipes out any songs already waiting in line, assuming they came from a "playlist".  For some reason, it does have some consideration for the song that is currently playing playing, and waits for it to finish, but any others that were queued up previously are dead....  Wiped out.  Then, you can add more songs to the queue, and unlike the the songs that were queued up from a playlist, new songs politely add themselves to the end of the list...  but then some odd things occur.  Once a song finishes playing from queue, it grabs the same rifle it used to wipe out the songs in line ahead of it, puts the muzzle in its own mouth and pulls the trigger.  It's dead and gone as well.  Thus, the queue continuously disappears at the head of the line, even while you're adding songs to the end. 

Then another odd thing happens.  If it gets to the end of the line, and if there are other songs in the same album, Foobar merrily continues playing the next following song(s)...  very much as if you had selected them...  except that you didn't. 

But don't think that if you're quick you can actually save any remaining elements of queue such that it remembers your selection.  Nope.  Try saving those songs and there will be nothing there.  Nor, I'm finding, is it ever really possible to stop playing songs in the queue, even if you completely delete them.  This is MADDENING.  Right now, Foobar is playing Yo Yo Ma, playing a Bach Concerto in Dmaj, and I can't get it to stop.  How utterly maddening.     

Now I might have some of these details wrong...  because they are extremely confusing...  but merely  trying to figure out WHAT Foobar is going to do in response to a particular action is a prescription for insanity.  Pretty much unpredictable.   

Now.... Most reasonable people would regard this 'hot mess' as a problem...  Not so power users of Foobar2000.  It appears that they think that everything is as it should be, and that there is sense and order in the universe.  I guess if I don't like it, I can just take my business elsewhere...  which sadly and begrudgingly, is probably what I will do. 

And just think...  Before all this started, I was going to contribute $$$ to the Android project.  Now, I find I don't care.

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #1 –
A foobar2000 "playlist" IS "an editable list of songs queued up to play" (if played in default mode, rather than shuffle) and there are many ways to fill such playlists.
http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php...st&p=853536

C.
PC = TAK + LossyWAV  ::  Portable = Opus (130)

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #2 –
I really don't get what you're saying or complaining about. If you want a list of songs to be played in the order you want, well that's called a playlist. <ctrl><n> to create a new playlist -> add songs from library view or from explorer -> arrange them in the order you want them to be played or use shuffle/random playback order, and voilà you have a list of songs that get played in exactly the order you want.

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #3 –
I'm not a power user of foobar2000. I use basically a default install with FACETS component for library browsing. I don't see any of the problems the OP sees in his use. I can create playlists and play them within foobar2000 from beginning to end (either in the order I choose or in random order). And I can save them for later use.  I can also import playlists that I've created elsewhere. So I'm really confused about the OP's post and his problems because they are not actual problems with using foobar2000.

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #4 –
Foobar isn't for everyone, it never claims to be. Plenty of users get by with none of the complaints you're mentioning here. Perhaps you should look into some other media players, there are plenty of other players which might suit your needs better.
 

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #5 –
The problem is that you're viewing the queue as a "now playing" playlist. I don't know why, but I advise to stop viewing the queue as a "now playing" playlist.

I'm confused why some people are confused by "playlist = now playing", so solving that conundrum could make foobar a better player.

The only thing I personally would like changed is that Foobar pastes items below the selected one, instead of above. That would really facilitate building quick playlists. Not some queue-mangling components.


Quote
Right now, Foobar is playing Yo Yo Ma, playing a Bach Concerto in Dmaj, and I can't get it to stop.

What about, um, clicking the Stop button?

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #6 –
Quote from: jazzthieve on
Foobar isn't for everyone, it never claims to be. Plenty of users get by with none of the complaints you're mentioning here. Perhaps you should look into some other media players, there are plenty of other players which might suit your needs better.


Honestly, I don't think this sort of dismissal with non-arguments is helpful.

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #7 –
Quote from: dhromed on
Quote from: jazzthieve on
Foobar isn't for everyone, it never claims to be. Plenty of users get by with none of the complaints you're mentioning here. Perhaps you should look into some other media players, there are plenty of other players which might suit your needs better.


Honestly, I don't think this sort of dismissal with non-arguments is helpful.



Why wouldn't it be? He obviously is dissatisfied with foobar so why stick to foobar then? If he really wanted to deal with these points he seems to be bothered about he should have asked about it instead of launching off with a lengthy rant on foobar. If he actually hates foobar so much but doesn't want to adapt to foobar or solve these issues there's no better choice then to choose a different media player.

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #8 –
Quote from: dhromed on
Honestly, I don't think this sort of dismissal with non-arguments is helpful.

I think he has a fair argument, though. There *are* things that you are unlikely to find in one player (and are okay with that fact), yet at the same time you (or someone else) pretty much expect(s) it from another, stemming from different design philosophies aimed at different demographics. Like 'foobar won't do anything, unless you tell it to do so'. Some people will find that a pro, some a con. And when asked to change it, the developers will most likely say no, upholding that basic design principle they chose to follow.

Similarly, I personally found foobar's execution of playback queue to be pretty logical. Most of the time it simply operates in the background serving the next song. Adding something to it is a temporary overwrite, a detour, nothing else. If you want a specific list of songs to go through, you create an actual playlist and manage that. But perhaps there are people who are used to a different routine and can't let it go. There are players that are meant for them.

You could say there's a third way, giving the user to choose their preferred way, but realistically (given the problem is not so simple) you will draw a line somewhere. You either approach it from one angle or the other. And users will line up behind one program or the other depending on their personal preferences.

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #9 –
Quote from: jazzthieve on
Why wouldn't it be? He obviously is dissatisfied with foobar so why stick to foobar then? If he really wanted to deal with these points he seems to be bothered about he should have asked about it instead of launching off with a lengthy rant on foobar. If he actually hates foobar so much but doesn't want to adapt to foobar or solve these issues there's no better choice then to choose a different media player.


"a great music player, that is perfect in so many other ways, and has so many wonderful, customizable features, without having tons of unwanted CRUD associated with it"

Sounds like a satisfied user to me! 
His only failing as a forum poster appears to be brevity, but we can look through that, I think. Someone who doesn't care about the player they've got is not going to write such a passionate magnum opus-- even if it's a smidge overwrought. Well. Just a tiny, 10-paragraph smidge. That's a lot of heartfelt prose.

This queue/playlists/nowplaying thing is a recurring "problem" for many people, and while I don't think it's foobar that has to drop everything to cater to these people, I would like to help them better, if only I understood what sort of mindset and expectations they have. Now all I can say is "ur doing it wrong lol". While basically true, I don't like that.

I don't get "now playing". I don't get Spotify. What's my music? What's next? When will it stop? I do get playlists. That's simplicity to me: these are the items that will play. Now they're playing, until the list is done! Enjoy!

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Daeron on
realistically (given the problem is not so simple) you will draw a line somewhere. You either approach it from one angle or the other. And users will line up behind one program or the other depending on their personal preferences.


Diversity good!
My point is more about what we can do to help (willing) users overcome one or two conceptual hurdles.

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #11 –
^ I have nothing against that. I'm usually among the helpers myself. However in this case OP's tone and post seems to suggest he already researched the solution but is not willing to make the switch in his mindset. I am unable to add anything more than (all points already completed by other people, including you as well):

1) stating the solution
2) explaining the way it works and why it makes sense to have it this way
3) ask OP to look at it from the different perspective (and hope he also finds the logic behind it worthwhile to follow)

Which is exactly what OP said he refuses to hear or do anymore, because he wants it EXACTLY the way he envisioned it to work. I don't think he is just confused about how playback queue works (unlike the reason most of these kind of topics spawn), he sees it, he mostly understands it (his depiction sounded more or less accurate to me), and does not want any of that. That crosses him out of the 'willing' group. I think the people in this topic and numerous others tried their best to help people ease into this system. But a lot of people will stick to their original way and will not convert no matter what you throw at them. And I know no other ways than the three points above to attempt doing so, either.

And I think that's fine, too. He will find another player that suits his ways better and he will be satisfied. Foobar will not become worse because of that and no harm was done to anyone, either. It kind of reminds me when you try to introduce your favorite band/perhaps a new genre to a friend of yours and he just doesn't 'get' it. Through experiences and time he might eventually grow to start liking it. Or he may not, ever. The only thing for certain is that he isn't the right person at the right time to make use of it.

Just my perception, anyway.

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #12 –
Quote from: dhromed on
Quote from: jazzthieve on
Why wouldn't it be? He obviously is dissatisfied with foobar so why stick to foobar then? If he really wanted to deal with these points he seems to be bothered about he should have asked about it instead of launching off with a lengthy rant on foobar. If he actually hates foobar so much but doesn't want to adapt to foobar or solve these issues there's no better choice then to choose a different media player.


"a great music player, that is perfect in so many other ways, and has so many wonderful, customizable features, without having tons of unwanted CRUD associated with it"

Sounds like a satisfied user to me! 
His only failing as a forum poster appears to be brevity, but we can look through that, I think. Someone who doesn't care about the player they've got is not going to write such a passionate magnum opus-- even if it's a smidge overwrought. Well. Just a tiny, 10-paragraph smidge. That's a lot of heartfelt prose.


What exactly are you trying to prove here? I've made a point clear and that's it. Please keep the subject on topic. If you don't agree with my advice of him trying a different player perhaps you should make a better suggestion to the topic starter instead of lingering on my opinion. This is useless information here.

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #13 –
It seems as though we forum participants are an incompetent and/or snobby lot incapable of answering questions correctly and, apparently, we're also incapable of understanding and sympathizing because we happily use foobar when OP's judgment is that foobar is illogical and flawed. Clearly the problem is foobar and its developer(s) and users

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #14 –
Nice to see how many people cares about this topic. The Forum is the most important part of foobar2000.
I love fb2k because i always now exactly what happens and why but first open your mind and learn.
Warning: fb2k is addictive.

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #15 –
Quote from: dhromed on
different design philosophies
Excellent term, but sadly a term which most developers of software are blissfully unaware of, let alone joe/mary-soap the user.
Any apparatus has a design philosophy, intentional or inadvertent. There are two basic design philosophies, the nuts and bolt behind the UI and the UI for the operator, the user only interacts with the UI and hopefully it is Intuitive and simple.
I needed to reprogram my mental ram for the following in f2k;
Send; it sure does send, with a vengeance, as it also OVERWRITES/Replaces everything in the playlist.
All f2k noobs have had that explained to them, or they will throw hissy fits when their darling playlist suddenly vanishes because of send.
I then patiently try to explain that Queue isn't displayed anywhere, and the noob grumbles and rumbles, "why is there no visual feedback as to the contents of the active AND Queued songs, and while we're here why is there no easy way to return to the active song ?" asks the noob.... I could go on forever about issues which a noob has with f2k's UI.
To gauge the intuitiveness of the design philosophy of f2k's UI, look for recurring queries of UI basics in this forum.

I'm no software developer but I know the phrase "design philosophy" intimately. The weakest link in any machine is the human operator, these humans are varied, some are smart others just plain dumb, some humans can re-flash their mental ram on the fly, other minds require constant formatiing and re-writing, but, the UI of the machine has to cater to all types, it's this salient fact which eludes most developers, especially in the software world.

The aviation industry was FORCED to standardise their UI irrespective of Manufacturer and design philosophies because of
a). loss life, lawsuits.
b). It's prohibitively expensive to have crews for extended periods of time on courses, i.e. re-flashing their mental ram.

Feedback of a selection whether it is visual, audio, or tactile is a must with humans, those three feedback parameters are intrinsic and vital in a UI and machine which a human will operate.

The most common phrase which is uttered by a noob learning the UI of a machine is "what is it doing now".

Oh, while I'm here, Humans don't like reading manuals, Manuals are like Kryptonite to a user of anything.

More stars in the universe than grains of beach sand

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #16 –
Quote from: tagtypedisplay on
Send; it sure does send, with a vengeance, as it also OVERWRITES/Replaces everything in the playlist.
If you have an idea for a better term maybe you could start a wiki page where we can collect suggestions for Peter. I will add "save/load playlist" -> "export/import playlist" to that list.

Quote from: tagtypedisplay on
The aviation industry was FORCED to standardise their UI irrespective of Manufacturer and design philosophies because of
Welcome to the wonderful world of consumer audio player software where safety is of no concern and many manufacturers try to use the looks of their products to set themselves apart from the competition.

You (I mean everyone) may be aware the playback queue was a rather late addition to foobar2000. It was added at the request of the users and - as far as I remember - a bit grudgingly since it was not orthogonal to the existing features. Take this grudge and the difficulty to fit the playback queue into the design and you get an explanation why foobar2000 lacks visualisation for the playback queue out of the box and why there is an artificial size limit on the playback queue.

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #17 –
Quote from: foosion on
[the queue] was added at the request of the users


Wow, really? I thought it was a necessary invisible thing that would allow foobar to internally know what to play next, never intended for user manipulation.

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #18 –
Neither the playback orders nor the "playback follows cursor" function depend on the playback queue. However, the playback queue takes precedence over these two features.

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #19 –
I like the playback queue. Don't use it often but it's a handy little intervention.
I wonder if the OP has enough info now to make an informed decision.

C.
PC = TAK + LossyWAV  ::  Portable = Opus (130)

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #20 –
Quote from: TreeDoctor on
Simply stated, Foobar2000 lacks an editable list of songs queued up to play...  and it's a tragic flaw.  I agree with other posters who have expressed the view that the information that would be needed to create such a list MUST reside somewhere...  yet is not used to create a list that would be easy to use.  Forget about selecting songs "on the fly" and adding them to those you've already selected.  There is a way to do it, IF you are playing a previously created "playlist".  You can append a new song to the end of this list, then manually move it into position to follow the song that's playing....  but there's no easy way to create a list that you c As soon as you select a new song, it appears in it's own ephemeral "playlist"  If you switch to that one, your position in the previous list is lost.  No going back.  [Note: Don't try to make sense out of what I've just written.  I keep testing out what I'm saying to make sure I'm correct, then find I'm wrong, then try typing something else, then finding that THAT's wrong.  The only thing that is consistent is that it is baffling.]

Your note is pretty much spot on: this part does not make any sense. Editing a playlist and adding songs to it is as easy as in other players. Editing the playback queue, if really necessary, can be done with a component

Quote
The "Playback Queue" is NOT a playback queue by any reasonable description.  It is, rather, the equivalent of a terrorist with semi-automatic rifle that wipes out any songs already waiting in line, assuming they came from a "playlist".  For some reason, it does have some consideration for the song that is currently playing playing, and waits for it to finish, but any others that were queued up previously are dead....  Wiped out.  Then, you can add more songs to the queue, and unlike the the songs that were queued up from a playlist, new songs politely add themselves to the end of the list...  but then some odd things occur.  Once a song finishes playing from queue, it grabs the same rifle it used to wipe out the songs in line ahead of it, puts the muzzle in its own mouth and pulls the trigger.  It's dead and gone as well.  Thus, the queue continuously disappears at the head of the line, even while you're adding songs to the end.

Why would a playback queue NOT remove the song once it finishes playing? Else it would be a playlist.

Quote
Then another odd thing happens.  If it gets to the end of the line, and if there are other songs in the same album, Foobar merrily continues playing the next following song(s)...  very much as if you had selected them...  except that you didn't.

It actually resumes playing the next song in the active playlist. Which is reasonable, as playback queue is not there to act as a "now playing" playlist.

Quote
Now.... Most reasonable people would regard this 'hot mess' as a problem...  Not so power users of Foobar2000.  It appears that they think that everything is as it should be, and that there is sense and order in the universe.

You seem to be very confused about the role of playlists and the playback queue. I don't understand why you want the playback queue to act as a playlist. That's what playlists are there for.

Quote from: tagtypedisplay on
Send; it sure does send, with a vengeance, as it also OVERWRITES/Replaces everything in the playlist.

Makes sense to me. Especially with the other option being "add to playlist".

Quote
All f2k noobs have had that explained to them, or they will throw hissy fits when their darling playlist suddenly vanishes because of send.

1. switch to the obliterated playlist
2. press ctrl+z
3. ???
4. profit

Quote
I then patiently try to explain that Queue isn't displayed anywhere, and the noob grumbles and rumbles, "why is there no visual feedback as to the contents of the active AND Queued songs, and while we're here why is there no easy way to return to the active song ?" asks the noob.... I could go on forever about issues which a noob has with f2k's UI.
To gauge the intuitiveness of the design philosophy of f2k's UI, look for recurring queries of UI basics in this forum.

I was a fb2k noob once, myself. I had none of those issues, except for maybe figuring out how the playback queue works. foobar2000 is a living proof that when something seems "intuitive" to you, does not mean it's intuitive for someone else. Otherwise that would mean Peter intentionally made the player "noob-proof"

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #21 –
I think people do have a point about "send to playlist". Just compare it to the "send to" function in Windows Explorer. Does "send to device" replace the content of the device? Does "send to email" obliterate the recipient's inbox? Image what the world would be like if it did.

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #22 –
I agree that "send to playlist" is confusing. I still scan the other options in the context menu and think "okay, it's not the one that adds or inserts." In other words, I determine its function by what it ISN'T.

Perhaps "send to playlist (replace)" is a better option. Or "replace playlist."
That's so plausible, I can't believe it.

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #23 –
Quote from: foosion on
I think people do have a point about "send to playlist". Just compare it to the "send to" function in Windows Explorer. Does "send to device" replace the content of the device? Does "send to email" obliterate the recipient's inbox? Image what the world would be like if it did.
I do see the point, I guess I'm just too used to it already. "Replace playlist" sounds fine to me.

Playlists, Playback Queue, and other instruments of torture

Reply #24 –
Quote
It's just that it's such a terrible shame that such a great music player, that is perfect in so many other ways, and has so many wonderful, customizable features, without having tons of unwanted CRUD associated with it, should be so tragically flawed by the absence of any logical, intuitive system for selecting, editing the songs you want to hear. I have read any number of questions that have been posted in various forums over the course of many years, and apparently it never gets any better. The best I can say is that Foobar2000 pretty much sucks in lacking this capability. At the same time, most (all?) power users seem either indifferent to the problem, or have resigned themselves to it. Mostly, I suspect that power users are so in love with, or titillated by, all the customizable features of Foobar2000, that the fact that it can't perform such a basic (yet useful) function simply doesn't particularly interest or trouble them. Sorry if I'm being unfair, but that's definitely the impression I've gotten.
.
Me I have discovered foobar2000 because I started becoming crazy when I tried to convince JRiver MC to use (on my setup) WASAPI correctly. ASIO was good,but I wanted to test alternatives.
I tried foobar2000 and WASAPI was seamless ! (not so ASIO, but "nobody is perfect" !), and better than ASIO on JRiver MC.
My first problem was the UI. The plain, vanilla, UI is awful !
Then I discovered how nice (and customizable) the UI can be. At the same time I discovered that installing a custom UI is (sometimes) a nightmare.
I said "sometimes" because a lot of times I have found nice skins (see with Google: "foobar skins"), but most of the times the installation instructions
  • are missing
  • are incomplete
  • cannot be understood by a person that is not a foobar2000 geek

So yes, the power users show how clever they are, but sometimes they don't want to share (or do not care about that) the result of they work.
At the end I have found the skin Silent Night 6 (thanks Arnie77), where the installation of the skin is compacted in a single SILENT NIGHT 6.exe.
A quick verification with the AntiVirus, then go !
This way I've got an UI that's a lot similar to the one of JRiver MC.
What is the purpose of a UI: is to handle in the most effective way a collection of hundred (if not thousand of albums). In this sense the JRiver MC is perfect, and the Silent Night 6 is quite perfect.
If Arnie77 wants to take its time he could make his theme more effective by making it even more similar to the JRiver MC one.
Happy ?
Not so much.
I have imported in foobar2000 the same collection I have in JRiver MC, and I discovered that the metadata handling is quite rudimentary:
  • importing cover arts is quite a nightmare (why not to give the possibility of getting them from Internet ?)
  • sometimes I get the content of an album (that a see as an unique list of "songs" in JRiver MC) spreaded out over a list of albums: one for each "song";
    sometimes the difference is subtle (the title, as seen by an audio tag editor, is CD2 on a "song" and cd2 on another), sometimes there is no difference (that I can see)

After I was able to "convince" JRiver MC to use WASAPI in a proper way (so that I hear the same thing from the two tools) I arrived to the conclusion that foobar2000 is a tool for hedonistic geeks, not for music lovers.
Another lost occasion for the humanity !