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Hydrogenaudio Forum => General Audio => Topic started by: Tycus on 2011-11-17 16:14:04

Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: Tycus on 2011-11-17 16:14:04
Hi everyone, just interested in your opinions in a debate I have been having with some friends...

Most DJ's that I know use 320K MP3's (with serato or traktor)

I have heard somebody who knows about sound engineering say that a V0 or even a V2 would be fine for a club environment (due to background noise and perhaps 'compression'/fatigue of your ears)

Ideally DJ's would be using FLAC or WAV (or vinyl god forbid!) but often they are using notebooks and have limited space. Assuming a good quality club sound system that was well set up, and 90 db SPL or more, would the difference between a V0 and a 320 be noticeable or negligible?
Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: saratoga on 2011-11-17 16:18:40
Given the noise level in every club i've been to, 64 kbps would probably be fine.
Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: Tycus on 2011-11-17 16:26:40
Given the noise level in every club i've been to, 64 kbps would probably be fine.


Thanks for your response, could you elaborate on that a bit for me?

Do mean that the background noise (from talking etc) means that you can't hear the imperfections/clipping in a lower quality MP3?

Or do you mean that the music noise levels are so high that your ears are blocking most frequencies out anyway?

Are lower (bass) frequencies that you 'feel' more than 'hear' a consideration at all?
Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: pdq on 2011-11-17 16:33:46
Lossy compression has no difficulty reproducing bass frequencies, even at low bitrates, so this is not a consideration.
Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: Tycus on 2011-11-17 17:00:46
Lossy compression has no difficulty reproducing bass frequencies, even at low bitrates, so this is not a consideration.


ah okay, thanks.

So do you agree also that low bitrate would be fine for club use?

Sorry to ask this again but is it because of background noise or the loudness of the soundsystem?
Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: saratoga on 2011-11-17 17:18:34
Sorry to ask this again but is it because of background noise or the loudness of the soundsystem?


Both.
Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: pdq on 2011-11-17 18:17:32
Ideally DJ's would be using FLAC or WAV (or vinyl god forbid!) but often they are using notebooks and have limited space. Assuming a good quality club sound system that was well set up, and 90 db SPL or more, would the difference between a V0 and a 320 be noticeable or negligible?

These days you can plug in a 32 GByte flash drive for thirty some dollars into your notebook, and you now have space for another 200+ hours of 320 mp3 files.
Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: DVDdoug on 2011-11-17 18:43:58
Quote
Hi everyone, just interested in your opinions in a debate I have been having with some friends...

...I have heard somebody who knows about sound engineering say that a V0 or even a V2 would be fine for a club environment (due to background noise and perhaps 'compression'/fatigue of your ears)
Weve all hear bad low-quality MP3s...  But, clearly, you and your friends have never done any  blind listening tests (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=16295).

V0 and V2 are very good.   In the best environment, with the best equipment, with most music, you are unlikely to hear a difference between V2, 320, or the uncompressed original in a blind listening test.

Take a look at Recomended LAME Settings[/u] (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=LAME#Recommended_encoder_settings)[/url]


Quote
...but often they are using notebooks and have limited space.
Get an external USB hard drive.  If you've got a good sound system, I wouldn't compromise too much...  A big hard drive is cheap compared to amps & speakers.  Your clients & customers are going to laugh if they find out you are playing 64kbps MP3s!   
Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: itisljar on 2011-11-17 18:59:20
I recall a thread here a few years ago about just the same topic, and I remember that the conclusion was that the (possible) artifacts are very amplified in such enviroments.
Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: kwanbis on 2011-11-17 21:12:36
I recall a thread here a few years ago about just the same topic, and I remember that the conclusion was that the (possible) artifacts are very amplified in such enviroments.

I doubt that with the drinking, the drugging, the jumping, the flirting, etc, they would pay much attention to the music
Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: saratoga on 2011-11-17 21:15:29
Pretty much every club I've been in has terrible room acoustics and usually woofers that are distorting like all hell because some idiot cranked them up about 5x as high as they should be.  Unless you guys know about some audiophile club I'm not aware of I think its hilarious worrying about a millisecond of pre-echo or whatever when you're basically going to play the music in the acoustic equivalent of a parking deck.
Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: googlebot on 2011-11-17 21:25:39
Bad acoustics can reveal and amplify artifacts else inaudible. Plan for a safety margin, ~160 kbps and up.

Unless you guys know about some audiophile club I'm not aware of...


http://cocoon.net/club/ (http://cocoon.net/club/)
Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: saratoga on 2011-11-17 22:59:48
Bad acoustics can reveal and amplify artifacts else inaudible.


In a controlled double blind test, sure.  But in the real world bad enough acoustics make artifacts irrelevant. 
Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: db1989 on 2011-11-18 10:40:45
64 kbps may be excessive (and might have been in jest, at least partially), but I imagine that -V2 would be more than adequate, and perhaps lower settings too.
Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: RonaldDumsfeld on 2011-11-18 15:48:24
I think some of you guys might be surprised at just how good a modern, state of the art point source club system can sound.

Of course it depends on the commitment of the club owner/promoter but most big cities will have at least one club which will beat the pants off a home Hi-Fi however expensive.

So if it sound o.k. at home it will also sound decent in a club.

Just as a matter of interest what bit rate do experts consider to be the aural equivalent of playing vinyl with a ~$50 cartridge?
Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: Soap on 2011-11-18 16:08:19
Just as a matter of interest what bit rate do experts consider to be the aural equivalent of playing vinyl with a ~$50 cartridge?


Since the sound of a $50 cartridge on vinyl is completely unlike the sound of lossy artifacts let's say FLAC with a bitdepth of 9.

Title: Minimum Acceptable Bitrate For A Club Sound System?
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2011-11-18 18:10:40
Does all the DJ software you could possibly want to use fully support VBR with all its features?

I ask because random access is far easier with CBR. Historically some tools haven't liked VBR.

I confidently use VBR for all my needs, but if I was depending on unknown future hardware and/or software to cope with it for my livelihood, I'd probably stick with CBR.

Cheers,
David.