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Topic: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file (Read 7283 times) previous topic - next topic
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ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Hi everyone, it's the first time i post here so I hope its the right place :)
 
I'm searching for a way to rip audio cd's to a SINGLE IMAGE FILE that i can then mount.
After some research it seems that only Nero's NRG image files can do that but its not an open standard and also its not scratch resistance etc like EAC. so not so sure if its a good idea. It seems weird to me that i cant find any kind of an open standard container file for the ripped files by EAC. The cue+bin rip methods gives me multiple files obviously.
i know about the the pros of using EAC, but i also want a single mountable image file, so i figured maybe i will try to rip to .nrg then mount it and test with EAC to check that its passes the test. is that logical at all?? maybe first EAC and then to .nrg? any ideas?
All i want is a single image file per audio-cd in a good archival fotmat.
I wish .iso files could do it but they cant.
Thanks
 


Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #1 –
Normally a BIN/CUE is great for disc images, well when it comes to mixed mode CDs that is as well as various data only formats.  It's about as nonpapritary as it's going to get.  But requires more than one file though.  Not all mounting software supports it either.

The closest you're going to get to single file image for containing an audio CD that is nonpapritary is a FLAC file with an embedded cuesheet.  Keep in mind most disc mounting software isn't going to support mounting of it.  Not all players out there support this format either and may play it as a single large track the length of the disc itself.

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #2 –
First, ask yourself what you want this for. If you want all the bits on a CD - lands and pits - you surely need a forensic tool. If you want the Reed-Solomon data I don't know if there is any image format. What you apparently can get, that CD rippers won't give you, is the "data of a data session" in the right order.

But if you want a binary image AND correct rip AND a playable single-file for everything except the data session, then you can try the following:
(1) Use e.g. Nero.
(2) Extract the audio. Test that it verifies AccurateRip. If it does, it is good enough.
If it cannot be found in AccurateRip, re-rip using e.g. EAC, and bitcompare using foobar2000. If it only differs at the beginning/end, it is only about offset, and everything is fine.
(3) As pointed out, FLAC with embedded cuesheet might be a hit-or-miss even with players that support FLAC. You can also try WavPack - it is open source, open spec, less supported than FLAC, but in my limited experience you are likely to have embedded cuesheet support if you have WavPack support at all.
 

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #3 –
Thanks for the quick response!
About my goals - I want to have the exact same experience as when I play the physical cd in my pc - where i choose a single cd from the pile and then once its inside the drive it starts playing it and autamaticly see the names of the songs and all of that in vlc/mpv/wmp/winamp/foobar and it all works flawlessly.  so i want a list of mountable images so when i will mount one of them it will be exactly the same.

Regarding FLAC with embedded cuesheet - sounds very interesting! can i mount it like an iso/nrg file so the pc will act as if it was an optical audio cd? can i make a  FLAC/wavpack with embedded cuesheet with EAC? what the difference between the two?

If I will go the nrg route i will mount and test with EAC.

Its just so weird to me there's no open standard that does what nrg file can do which is represent an audio-cd with a single mountable/burnable/playable image file.

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #4 –
Quote from: koferk on
I'm searching for a way to rip audio cd's to a SINGLE IMAGE FILE that i can then mount...
All i want is a single image file per audio-cd in a good archival fotmat.
Audio CDs don't work like DVDs, there's no file system on the disc to turn into a mountable ISO and the bit stream on the CD only becomes audio data after it's been through error correction.  I suppose it would be possible to create a software emulation of a CD drive, but I don't think it's been done and there wouldn't seem to be much need for it.

As indicated above, the best you can do is make a verified rip in any format you want.  If you insist, I suppose it would be possible to then use the rip to author a DVD, and write that as an ISO.  But that wouldn't behave exactly like the original CD, it wouldn't get recognised by the on-line databases (see next post).
It's your privilege to disagree, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #5 –
Quote from: koferk on
About my goals - I want to have the exact same experience as when I play the physical cd in my pc - where i choose a single cd from the pile and then once its inside the drive it starts playing it and autamaticly see the names of the songs and all of that in vlc/mpv/wmp/winamp/foobar and it all works flawlessly.
That will only be because vlc/mpv/wmp/winamp/foobar is looking the CD up on on-line databases.  If you want to see what the CD-only experience is really like, try the same with your Internet turned off (and all caches cleared of course).

Quote
Regarding FLAC with embedded cuesheet - sounds very interesting! can i mount it like an iso/nrg file so the pc will act as if it was an optical audio cd?
No, but if the CD is ripped to FLAC (or whatever), provided you've enabled on-line look-up in EAC it will have added all the appropriate metadata to the individual track files, and they will show in the player without further on-line look-up.  In FB2K, you just treat a folder in the file system as CD album – makes no difference that it is not a physical CD.

Quote
Its just so weird to me there's no open standard that does what nrg file can do which is represent an audio-cd with a single mountable/burnable/playable image file.
Not weird at all.  We simply don't need it.
It's your privilege to disagree, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #6 –
..Well, i need it  8) , and nero made it so it shows theres aplication for that, mostly archival where you prefer an image file per disc for various resons.  An audio cd might not contain a "file system" but it is "digital", so Nero managed to solve the problem somehow and build that digital bridge to a single image file of an audio-cd, if only it was open source and then used in EAC that would a perfect utopia.
At any case, i might first try the FLAC/wavpack with embedded cuesheet and see how it goes but if it not mountable like nrg then i will go with the non-open stand which is also not so recomended but i figure thats the only option for what im lookin for.
Thanks again!

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #7 –
You might want it, but I guess you are a small minority when others find it more convenient to manage their music libraries on a track-by-track basis.  Try it, you might find it serves your purpose.  This has the benefit of not requiring on-line look-up for metadata (do it once, add it to the track file, instead of caching it or doing it every time).

Nonetheless, it would be interesting to know what Nero does.  I presume they provide software to mount the image file in the OS as if it were a CD in an optical drive.  If that's the case, then EAC ought to be able to rip it.  I wonder whether FreeDB (or whatever) would recognise it.

If you like and want what Nero does, then the moral thing to do is pay Nero not expect someone else to reproduce Nero's IP for free.
It's your privilege to disagree, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #8 –
Quote from: koferk on
I want to have the exact same experience as when I play the physical cd in my pc - where i choose a single cd from the pile and then once its inside the drive it starts playing it and autamaticly see the names of the songs and all of that in vlc/mpv/wmp/winamp/foobar and it all works flawlessly.  so i want a list of mountable images so when i will mount one of them it will be exactly the same.

Oh, but then you can use external cuesheets even. And they don't need to point to an image, they can point to tracks.
* One folder per album, contains a .cue and either image or tracks
* One folder with pointers (symlinks/shortcuts) to all the .cue. That's the one you browse and pick your CD. Drag it to your media player.

Or you can use a media player with a "by CD" or "by folder" view. That's what I do; sure it will display all the tracks when I click it, but I do select a CD and play it.
 

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #9 –
I want an open standard for archaival and secure reasons, its not about the money, but in this specific case there is no open standard. Fun fact - i just found out that nero made a linux version untill 2010! So i plan to try that first. If anyone interested i found that old version here - https://archive.org/details/nero_linux_4
cheers

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #10 –
Quote from: koferk on
I want an open standard for archaival
You'll have to wait until someone figures out how to read the entire data spiral from a CD without a disc drive getting in the way.

Until then, FLAC (one file per track) and CUE should be good enough.

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #11 –
Do any of the players you have in mind fully handle CD playback from a physical disc correctly in the first place, specifically de-emphasis and sub-track index points? (Not meant as a snarky question, I'm honestly curious.)

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #12 –
Quote from: koferk on
Fun fact - i just found out that nero made a linux version untill 2010! So i plan to try that first. If anyone interested i found that old version here - https://archive.org/details/nero_linux_4
cheers

As far as I know, no program that rips audio CDs into some sort of binary format (bin, nrg, etc) images does secure ripping at all. They just burst through whole disc, and you can only hope it will read audio data without any hiccups.

That is why there is no point of making binary disc images, with preserved TOC and whatsnot, of audio CDs. That's why we make audio + cue images, that can be read and played in whichever program you want, or even better, tracks only without cue.

And IIRC, there was a program which could mount wav+cue as disk drive, but I dabbled in that so long ago, I forgot the name of the software.
TAPE LOADING ERROR

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #13 –
Quote from: koferk on
I want an open standard for archaival and secure reasons
Understandably. But what do you want to archive securely?

The audio? (Several options.)
The bitstream like http://www.pmonta.com/compact-disc-microscopy.html? (Forget about image formats.)
Something in between?

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Porcus on
Understandably. But what do you want to archive securely?
Most folks who want more than what's captured in FLAC+CUE would probably be satisfied with the full bitstream from the original digital master (lead-in, subchannels, etc.). The processing steps required to convert that bitstream to/from the pits-and-lands on a disc are just overhead inherent to the medium itself; they exist only in service of preserving and accurately reproducing that original bitstream. If you have the digital master you can reproduce the pits-and-lands version at will.

Having said that, if I could easily get that bitstream off a disc by processing a high-resolution image of the pits and lands rather than throwing the disc into an optical drive and hoping the combination of physical disc, CD transport and drive firmware all cooperate well enough to get an accurate rip, I would be all over it.  (See: KryoFlux for floppies and the Domesday Duplicator for LaserDiscs.)

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Lazlo Nibble on
Most folks who want more than what's captured in FLAC+CUE would probably be satisfied with the full bitstream from the original digital master (lead-in, subchannels, etc.). The processing steps required to convert that bitstream to/from the pits-and-lands on a disc are just overhead inherent to the medium itself; they exist only in service of preserving and accurately reproducing that original bitstream.
Except if there are errors to be corrected. Save it all, compare to next rip (possibly on a different drive).
That isn't farfetched. Secure CD ripping goes to lengths to try to get every bit out.

Anyway you aren't wrong - my point is that the question needs to be more precise for the answer to be precise.

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #16 –
so here's my workflow (for now) -

I rip to nrg image file with nero, then i mount it and rip again with fre:ac to flac/cue just for the accuraterip test, if it passes the test it means the nrg file is all good (i think), in case it wont i will only then use EAC on the physical disk to see if it can help passing the test.

I read somewhere that some software can actually make an iso image of audio-cd, NOT iso9660 but iso none the less, maybe it was isobuster? not sure.
can anyone give more info on that?

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #17 –
Quote from: koferk on
I rip to nrg image file with nero, then i mount it and rip again with fre:ac to flac/cue just for the accuraterip test, if it passes the test it means the nrg file is all good (i think)
That sounds reasonable

Quote
I read somewhere that some software can actually make an iso image of audio-cd, NOT iso9660 but iso none the less
If it's not ISO9660 how can it be ISO?  I guess you mean it is sufficient to fool an ISO reader into mounting it, but I don't see how that would get you where you want to be.  I doubt the ISO reader would register on the OS as an audio CD inserted in an optical drive, so any apps expecting to see an audio CD would just ignore it.
It's your privilege to disagree, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #18 –
Quote from: koferk on
I read somewhere that some software can actually make an iso image of audio-cd,
No, that's impossible. ISO images can only contain mode 1 or mode 2 form 1 data tracks.

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #19 –
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_disc_image and the "kinda weird" history at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9660#History

To elaborate:
* The ISO-standardized format is for a file system image, and the bit stream of a red book CDDA is not in files at all.
* Some applications can (also) use image formats that are not (any version of) ISO 9660.
* Source of confusion yes - several users think "iso" and "image format" are synonyms, at least in the context of optical discs.  Understandably, the publishers are more eager to tout "this software does that!", than nitpick on terminology.

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #20 –
'dd', which will indiscriminately read/write whatever data you give it, doesn't see CDDA as data
Code: [Select]
# dd if=/dev/sr0 of=~/cdda.iso
dd: error reading '/dev/sr0': Input/output error
0+0 records in
0+0 records out
0 bytes copied, 0.0231625 s, 0.0 kB/s


There's a program called cdrdao that will rip the audio to a bin file along with a toc file.  I think the bin file is just raw LPCM.  You don't have to mount the image/file, just use the toc file.

https://gist.github.com/viviparous/fb3742f54e7338671fdd7df7fff3cf5f

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #21 –
Gosh. I have used cdrdao, but didn't know it can store subchannel in image even without de-interleaving:
--read-subchan rw_raw for reading raw R-W sub-channel data (not de-interleaved, not error corrected, L-EC data included in the track image)

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #22 –
Quote from: koferk on
I'm searching for a way to rip audio cd's to a SINGLE IMAGE FILE that i can then mount.
You can use DiscImageCreator and the CCD/IMG/SUB files can be mounted with Virtual CloneDrive.
It will also create BIN/CUE files which you can use to verify if the copy is identical to an EAC dump.
Allegari nihil et allegatum non probare, paria sunt.

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #23 –
Final update - At the end I decided to listen to the experts here and go with multiple flac files and a cue using CUETools's cueripper.After seeing this comparison https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Comparison_of_CD_rippers
notice the Pre-emphasis detection in EAC is missing the subcode Pre-emphasis detection because of european laws that protects copy protect :)  thanks to everyone for the good tips
 

Re: ripping audio cd to a single mountable archival image file

Reply #24 –
You might want to review that decision and use a combination of CUERipper and EAC for the best result.  According to the comparison table, CUERipper can't access CD Text for setting metadata (EAC can).  Not that there is often CD Text, but neither is there often pre-emphasis.

As you seem keen on achieving the best result possible and willing to put in the time and effort, I suggest:

  • Either examine the CD prior to ripping to assess CD Text and pre-emphasis status, then choose your ripper accordingly,
  • Or make rips with both rippers and compare the results, keeping the best.

As I understand it, pre-emphasis makes no difference to the ripping process.  If pre-emphasis is detected, a metadata tag is set to tell the player to apply de-emphasis (assuming the player supports it).  There is also a rumour that some pre-emphasised recordings are not marked as such, in which case you need to be able to set the pre-emphasis tag manually.  Ripped to a lossless format, it would be possible to write the de-emphasised data back to the file if desired.

Personally I use MP3Tag when comparing rips.  That way, tags are simple to compare and transfer, and files play through the system default player (in my case FB2K) with a double-click.
It's your privilege to disagree, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.