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Topic: AB test inconclusive, but still preference... (Read 17347 times) previous topic - next topic
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AB test inconclusive, but still preference...

Reply #25 –
Quote from: wgscott on
Your first observation should not be dismissed like others have reported here.

I think if you had read the thread more carefully you would find it is not the observation that is being dismissed, but rather the implicit conclusion and the shroud of authority it is draped in.

Perhaps a reading of the terms of service of this forum and the solitary other thread started by the OP would put it in deeper context for you.
Creature of habit.

AB test inconclusive, but still preference...

Reply #26 –
Quote from: Soap on
Quote from: wgscott on
Your first observation should not be dismissed like others have reported here.

I think if you had read the thread more carefully you would find it is not the observation that is being dismissed, but rather the implicit conclusion and the shroud of authority it is draped in.

Perhaps a reading of the terms of service of this forum and the solitary other thread started by the OP would put it in deeper context for you.



Maybe, but I don't really see what difference the context makes here.  Frankly, if the OP is a child molester rather than a speaker builder, it doesn't really matter for purposes of formulating a testable hypothesis.  With some minor tweaks, his hypothesis (or 'implicit conclusion') can be made testable.  So, I really don't get what the problem is.

I also don't get the implicit threat with respect to the terms of service of this forum.  I know a lot more about science than I do audio, and I am simply pointing out something that I think might sometimes get overlooked, i.e., we don't deduce hypotheses.  We postulate them, i.e., we make our best-informed guess, and try to formulate the hypothesis as testable.

AB test inconclusive, but still preference...

Reply #27 –
Point is simple, you chided the forum (or its members) for attacking the observation, when no such attack was made.
The (not so) implicit conclusion and the attempt at a fallacious defense of said conclusion is what drew the attack.
The entire premise of your criticism is false.

And... you were not being threatened, merely pointed towards things you appeared not to have read, another part of the (continuing) story you appear to have missed.
Creature of habit.

AB test inconclusive, but still preference...

Reply #28 –
Quote from: Soap on
Point is simple, you chided the forum (or its members) for attacking the observation, when no such attack was made.
The (not so) implicit conclusion and the attempt at a fallacious defense of said conclusion is what drew the attack.
The entire premise of your criticism is false.

And... you were not being threatened, merely pointed towards things you appeared not to have read, another part of the (continuing) story you appear to have missed.



A little bit of objectivity might go a long way here.

As long as we are on the subject of reading comprehension, let's start with the fact that my reply was clearly directed to the original poster, so I did not "chide the forum (or its members."  Second, the word I used was "dismissed," which is rather neutral.  Third, you falsely assume I did not read the terms and conditions for the forum.  Forth, why attack the guy?  Scientists have enough problems with public relations without this kind of behavior.  (I've had death threats, kidnapping threats from fundamentalist creationists, and colleagues have had their cars bombed, so no, I don't take this lightly.)  A little diplomacy can go a long way here.  Point out to the guy how he can make what he is saying into a testable hypothesis that he or someone else can go test, and why the results might be of general interest.

AB test inconclusive, but still preference...

Reply #29 –
meh

has this not be beaten enough?

AB test inconclusive, but still preference...

Reply #30 –
1 - Telling him (the OP) his observation was dismissed would be an incorrect statement on your part, and a slander on the people who responded to his post.  My reading comprehension is fine, you accused people unnecessarily for actions they did not even make.  My objectivity is just fine on this point, TYVM.

2 - I assumed nothing regarding your reading.  I stated that you appeared not to because of your (see above) incorrect slander.  I apologize for assuming you simply misunderstood the context rather than the facts.

3:
Quote
Point out to the guy how he can make what he is saying into a testable hypothesis that he or someone else can go test, and why the results might be of general interest.

And this is exactly why context matters.  Such effort had been made only days ago.
Creature of habit.

AB test inconclusive, but still preference...

Reply #31 –
If you equate using the word "dismissed" as "slander", you may be just  a wee bit over-sensitive, especially for someone who likes to go around attacking others.

AB test inconclusive, but still preference...

Reply #32 –
Hi All,

I noticed some replies were posted after my appeal to bin the topic, and I feel the need to reply and hopefully be able to clarify a few things:

First of all, I think there might be some confusion about the observation my friend made.  That observation was based on my behavior AFTER we did the AB test.  In a period of about 4 hours, I switched from Marantz to Arcam and vice versa at least 5 times. 

For all of you who have expressed some doubts about the professional qualities of my friend, I ask you to keep in mind that he had no knowledge of audio at all.  For him, that represented an unknown factor in evaluating "the why" of my behavior.  As a consequence, he did not.  And yes, my decision to buy the Marantz instead of the Arcam set was based largely on my friends observation.

Another thing is that to me it looks like some members do no read posts very well...  As an example, I stated that my friend was unable to give an explanation for my changed behavior.  At some point in this topic that changed to a questioning "having nothing to say about it".  I also find it somewhat strange that someone implied in his writings I did not state facts ("a fact based forum").

And as for the "Appeal to authority"...  I do not believe this is a bad thing to begin with.  Also, having doubts does not equal saying someone is right or wrong.  There is a difference to "Don't doubt my authority" and having doubts about other people's ability to do so.

I posted the topic here specifically because I hoped for critical but informative reactions.  If I wanted something else I would have posted in one of the many other forums ruled by "golden ear" fanatics.  The critical part is represented very well here...

But I am sorry folks...  I truly feel that that on this forum members who post topics or replies that question or even go against what seems to be an ongoing consensus within the inner circle of the establishment can expect very critical but less informative reactions.  However, this definitely does not go for all!!!!!


I hope this is not regarded as an insulting post.  If anyone feels it is, please talk to me using private messaging. 


Kind regards,
Peter
 

AB test inconclusive, but still preference...

Reply #33 –
@ wgscott:

I am afraid that the experiment can not be repeated...  The events took place about 10 years ago, I have moved from The Netherlands to Brasil, and I recently learned of my friend's passing :-( 

I have a question though...  If it were possible, how can one eliminate the subject (in this case me) from being influenced by the knowledge of the purpose of the test?  I am having trouble with the concept of natural behavior in a "controlled" environment... 

PLEASE don't take my question as arguing!  I am just ignorant about the subject, at least to some (or even a great) extent.

Kind regards,
Peter

AB test inconclusive, but still preference...

Reply #34 –
Quote from: thesurfingalien on
@ wgscott:

I am afraid that the experiment can not be repeated...  The events took place about 10 years ago, I have moved from The Netherlands to Brasil, and I recently learned of my friend's passing :-( 

I have a question though...  If it were possible, how can one eliminate the subject (in this case me) from being influenced by the knowledge of the purpose of the test?  I am having trouble with the concept of natural behavior in a "controlled" environment... 

PLEASE don't take my question as arguing!  I am just ignorant about the subject, at least to some (or even a great) extent.

Kind regards,
Peter


It is a reasonable question.  The best way is to have someone set it up so that you don't even know the test is being conducted.  In this case, the question is whether your non-verbal behavior changes is a readily identifiable and repeatable way when one player is being used rather than the other.  If "test anxiety" indeed prevents you from exhibiting that behavior, then a hidden camera with a random timer or something could possibly be used.  Behavioral psychologists I think invest a lot of time in designing these types of experiments.  I really have no idea myself (I'm a biophysical chemist) how to do that, so I am just guessing really.  But the main point is that if you are unaware that your response is being measured, that should remove "test anxiety" from the equation.

I think this is a little bit like trying to test whether animals can distinguish different colors.  They can't tell you directly, so you have to make some sort of discreet measurement and then infer what is going on from changes in behavior that are reproducible in a statistically significant way.

AB test inconclusive, but still preference...

Reply #35 –
@ wgscott,

Thanks for taking the time to explain!  It makes complete sense to me...  I figure that behavior tests are quite difficult to perform! 

Kind regards,
Peter

AB test inconclusive, but still preference...

Reply #36 –
Quote from: thesurfingalien on
For all of you who have expressed some doubts about the professional qualities of my friend, I ask you to keep in mind that he had no knowledge of audio at all.  For him, that represented an unknown factor in evaluating "the why" of my behavior.  As a consequence, he did not.  And yes, my decision to buy the Marantz instead of the Arcam set was based largely on my friends observation.

Another thing is that to me it looks like some members do no read posts very well...  As an example, I stated that my friend was unable to give an explanation for my changed behavior.  At some point in this topic that changed to a questioning "having nothing to say about it".  I also find it somewhat strange that someone implied in his writings I did not state facts ("a fact based forum").


Again, if your friend truly was unable to offer an explanation for your changed behavior -- a hypothesis -- despite having a degree in psychology , then that calls your friend's training, or your memory, into question. There are several explanations for your behavior well-known to anyone with training in psychology and experimental psychology methods (various types of 'sighted' bias, which require no knowledge of audio), and another well-known to people trained in psychoacoustics specifically (level mismatch bias).  Your friend should have offered at least some of them as explanations. Those explanations - hypotheses -- would need to be tested to see if they apply in your case, as wgscott has indicated.  Your psychology-trained friend would know about that too. 


And now we learn that this all happened a decade and a continent ago, and the only other witness has passed on.  So perhaps you can understand why some of us find your argument weak?


AB test inconclusive, but still preference...

Reply #37 –
@ krabapple

Perhaps it would have been a more clear or correct statement if I had said my friend was unwilling to.  For him the fact that he believed he did not have enough knowledge about audio technology introduced an unknown factor in the "why".  In this case "unable" must be regarded to as a self-declared unable.  Also, I am aware (and was at that time) of the various psychological effects that can be related to audio.  My friend knew I was aware of these phenomenons, so there was no point in mentioning these.

About your last remark...  It is rather confusing to me.

Regards,
Peter