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Topic: My Tweeter went out! (Read 12769 times) previous topic - next topic
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My Tweeter went out!

I took it out and tested it directly.  Its broke.

There just 50$ sony speakers, the same as the ones in the picture but they sound great with my 15 year old 30 watt sharp amp and a little bass boost from my creative sound card.  Now they have a new model that has 80k-50kz response instead of my 50k-20khz (more like 15k-20khz) ones, so they put some new tweeters that look nice and a new woofer I think.

I would be interested in buying these unless I can find a decent tweeter that fits my speakers and don't cost more than buying new ones.  Any suggestions?...  I might need a second stereo in the future.

Edit: man I could get those for $43.25 refurb.

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #1 –
Oh Never mind.  I just pushed on the tweeter cone and then it started working again and sounding better than ever!  I should of know that my 30 watt amp couldn't blow it out my 120 watt speakers.  Man this sounds good though and its loud.

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #2 –
Quote from: tospace on
Oh Never mind.  I just pushed on the tweeter cone and then it started working again and sounding better than ever!  I should of know that my 30 watt amp couldn't blow it out my 120 watt speakers.  Man this sounds good though and its loud.


I bravely predict that the tweeter will stop working again in short order. [-(

Spending money on speakers wisely is a smart thing to do. IME speakers that size stop or slow down delivering added price performance around $200 a pair.  A little larger often gets you a lot better sound.

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #3 –
Quote from: tospace on
Oh Never mind.  I just pushed on the tweeter cone and then it started working again and sounding better than ever!  I should of know that my 30 watt amp couldn't blow it out my 120 watt speakers.  Man this sounds good though and its loud.

With a power of 30 watt RMS it is very easy to kill a dome tweeter. Most of them will overheat quite fast a 10 Watt input or even less.

When listening to "normal" music only a small fraction of input power is sent to the tweeter, but when the amplifier is clipping due to listening too loud it may die...

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #4 –
If the tweeter goes out again, I'd go ahead and replace it.    Even if you upgrade to a better pair of speakers, you might want to repair & keep the old speakers.    The tweeter is the least expensive component in the speaker system...  You can get a pair of tweeters for under $10, and you could have an extra pair of "working" speakers.


If you change the tweeter, change the pair.  A different tweeter is going to change the sound  (maybe better maybe worse!).


Check Parts Express[/u] for a tweeter that fits.  (You might have to modify the baffle.)   

Quote
I should of know that my 30 watt amp couldn't blow it out my 120 watt speakers. Man this sounds good though and its loud.
  As Sunhillow said...  First, you can't always trust speaker specs!  Second, that's 120 Watts of undistorted music (or maybe pink noise).    And, the tweeter can't handle 120 Watts....  When you see a tweeter rated for 20W, It doesn't mean you can actually pump 20W into it...  It means that it can handle the high-frequency part of a 20W music signal.  You can burn-out most tweeters with a 30W 20kHz test tone.

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #5 –
Well I do blast them out with the treble cranked up pretty high sometimes.  But is this really what happens when they blow out?  Today it was cutting out and I just had to push on it again to fix it.  Now it sounds perfect.

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #6 –
Quote
But is this really what happens when they blow out?
Maybe...  Actually, I'd expect it to die permanently if it was "fried" or "burned out".    Sorry, I wasn't trying to say you did burn it out... Just that it's possible to burn it out with a small amp.    It may have failed in some other way, or for some other reason...  It may have been a manufacturing defect that didn't show-up right away...  The tiny wire that runs from the connection terminal to the cone may have come loose at the cone end (not repairable). 

I suspect that it is the tweeter itself, since moving the cone seems to temporarily correct it.  But, have you taken the speaker apart and checked the connections (wiggled the wires)?  If there are "quick disconnects" (push-on connectors) where the wires connect to the drivers, or to the crossover, etc., you can sometimes get some oxidation and end-up with an intermittent connection.  (My guess is that there are soldered connections which usually last forever if done properly.)

Quote
Now they have a new model that has 80k-50kz response...
Hmmm...  That gives me an idea!  Cone & dome tweeters don't usually go to 50kHz, which makes me think it probably uses a piezo tweeter.    Piezo's are low cost, and they are supposed to be "impossible" to burn out!    The downside is that they can sound "harsh".  But, they are cheap enough that you don't lose much if you don't like the sound. (Chances are, you'd have to modify the box to make it fit, because you don't have as many size/shape options.) 

I used to have a pair of large speakers that had four 8" full-range speakers in each box.  The highs were  "missing", so I got a couple of piezo horns and I just hooked them up in parallel (piezos will work without a crossover) and sat them on top of the speaker box with a little velcro to keep them from moving around.  If you don't mind having an extra horn-speaker sitting on top of your speaker box, that might be a cheap & easy fix.  (You'd have to disconnect the tweeter in the good box.)

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #7 –
Quote from: tospace on
Well I do blast them out with the treble cranked up pretty high sometimes.  But is this really what happens when they blow out?


Tweeters have a number of failure patterns that relate to how they are abused,

Sounds like you fatigued and fractured the wires that hook up to the voice coil.

Quote
Today it was cutting out and I just had to push on it again to fix it.  Now it sounds perfect.


Wait until tomorrow!

If you want to play music loud, you must pay the piper and spend more money for a better speaker. If you fix what you have, you're headed for the same problems again.

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #8 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Cone & dome tweeters don't usually go to 50kHz,


There are exceptions, e.g., the dome tweeter in Tannoy Reveal 6D
Ceterum censeo, there should be an "%is_stop_after_current%".

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: tospace on
Well I do blast them out with the treble cranked up pretty high sometimes.  But is this really what happens when they blow out?


Tweeters have a number of failure patterns that relate to how they are abused,

Sounds like you fatigued and fractured the wires that hook up to the voice coil.

Quote
Today it was cutting out and I just had to push on it again to fix it.  Now it sounds perfect.


Wait until tomorrow!

If you want to play music loud, you must pay the piper and spend more money for a better speaker. If you fix what you have, you're headed for the same problems again.



Could also be voice coil delamination, and having a wire catch in the gap.

I echo the "parts express" method of repair, but you need to know something about the tweeters you are replacing. (and do not replace just one).
-----
J. D. (jj) Johnston

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #10 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
[\quote]
I used to have a pair of large speakers that had four 8" full-range speakers in each box.  The highs were  "missing", so I got a couple of piezo horns and I just hooked them up in parallel (piezos will work without a crossover) and sat them on top of the speaker box with a little velcro to keep them from moving around.  If you don't mind having an extra horn-speaker sitting on top of your speaker box, that might be a cheap & easy fix.  (You'd have to disconnect the tweeter in the good box.)


I like your idea.  I could drill a tiny hole in the back of my speakers for a wire and hook up a tweeter.  I could even make a little box for the tweeter and paint it and then set it on top.  Then I could get a Polk Audio 10" 50 watt sub and turn the bass down on my speakers.  These speakers are surprisingly good for the size so I think I could make a nice stereo even tho there cheep, and I have a special amp that sounds like no other amp Ive ever heard..  How much do you think it would cost for a tweeter that sounds good?,  Like something you would find in expensive bose or polk speakers.

And yeah I have quick dis connects,  I actually swapped my tweeters by accident.  And theres a cross over inside.


Thanks for the replies,  now I can't stop thinking about speakers 

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #11 –
Quote
How much do you think it would cost for a tweeter that sounds good?, Like something you would find in expensive bose or polk speakers.
I don't know...  In a 2 or 3 way system, the tweeter is probably in the ballpark of 20% of the total speaker cost...  But, that's just a wild guess, and it going to vary a lot. 

You should be able to get a good tweeter for $20 -$25.  Parts Express sells tweeters for over $400, but I think that's just silly!  I'd mainly look at frequency response, sensitivity, and power handling.  Unfortunately, Parts Express doesn't seem to publish frequency response graphs, and they don't give a +/-dB for the response. 

If it was me, I'd be looking for something in the $5 - $15 range for your Sony speakers.  And, if I was ordering from Parts Express, I'd spend a couple more dollars on a couple of piezo horns just to try them out.  If you don't like the way they sound you haven't lost much.  (A lot of low & meduim-priced PA speakers use piezos, because they are inexpensive and they handle power.)

A subwoofer is a good idea too.  It'll give you "bigger" sound, and maybe you won't need to drive your main speakers so hard.  ...Or, maybe with the sub, you'll want to go even louder! 

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #12 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Quote
How much do you think it would cost for a tweeter that sounds good?, Like something you would find in expensive bose or polk speakers.
I don't know...  In a 2 or 3 way system, the tweeter is probably in the ballpark of 20% of the total speaker cost...  But, that's just a wild guess, and it going to vary a lot. 

You should be able to get a good tweeter for $20 -$25.  Parts Express sells tweeters for over $400, but I think that's just silly!  I'd mainly look at frequency response, sensitivity, and power handling.  Unfortunately, Parts Express doesn't seem to publish frequency response graphs, and they don't give a +/-dB for the response. 

If it was me, I'd be looking for something in the $5 - $15 range for your Sony speakers.


I don't know you might change your mind if you hear them.  Some reviews say they sound better then 300$ bose bookshelf speaker,  They really just sound great at close range but wouldn't be good for a home theater or any thing.  I think they compare to my dad's polk audio wall mounted speakers, just not as "big" and bassy sounding.  I am only using these in my 12"x12" room for computer (music) speakers.

Quote
A subwoofer is a good idea too.  It'll give you "bigger" sound, and maybe you won't need to drive your main speakers so hard.  ...Or, maybe with the sub, you'll want to go even louder! 

oh yeah, My amp goes crazy loud if I turn the bass nob all the down.  I just keep the bass nob in the middle and use a very "low" bass boost so it sounds like theres a little sub under my desk.  I think 30 watts "back then" is different than 30 watts now because my amp goes louder than my dad's 100 watt stereo amp with the same speakers.

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #13 –
Quote
I don't know you might change your mind if you hear them.
Change my mind about what???  I wouldn't spend more than $15 for a tweeter to go into your $25 speaker and I wouldn't spend $400 on any tweeter...  At least not for a home system...  I'd need at 5 or 7 of them for surround sound... If you're spending $2000 on tweeters, I guess you've got to go 7.1 surround!  Maybe if I was putting a system together for a U2 concert, I might need  several $400 horn tweeters.  ...I think I spent about $400 to build a pair of 15" subwoofers, which is extreme overkill for my home theater system.

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #14 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Quote
I don't know you might change your mind if you hear them.
Change my mind about what???  I wouldn't spend more than $15 for a tweeter to go into your $25 speaker and I wouldn't spend $400 on any tweeter...  At least not for a home system...  I'd need at 5 or 7 of them for surround sound... If you're spending $2000 on tweeters, I guess you've got to go 7.1 surround!  Maybe if I was putting a system together for a U2 concert, I might need  several $400 horn tweeters.  ...I think I spent about $400 to build a pair of 15" subwoofers, which is extreme overkill for my home theater system.

I meant change your mind about spending 5 to 15$ because you said you can get a good one for 20 to 25$ and good treble is worth it for these speakers I think... I hope you weren't talking about single tweeters??

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #15 –
Quote from: tospace on
Oh Never mind.  I just pushed on the tweeter cone and then it started working again and sounding better than ever!  I should of know that my 30 watt amp couldn't blow it out my 120 watt speakers.  Man this sounds good though and its loud.


Common misconception.

It is easier to blow a tweeter with a low powered amp pushed into clipping than with a very powerful amp.  I had a set of speakers rated at "500 watts" that I destroyed three tweeters with a 30W amp.  I switch to 500W mono amplifiers for each speaker and never blew a tweeter again.

Clipping an underpowered amp will destroy the tweeters much faster than using a high powered amplifier will in typical use.
Was that a 1 or a 0?

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #16 –
Quote from: DigitalMan on
It is easier to blow a tweeter with a low powered amp pushed into clipping than with a very powerful amp.


A common misconception.

Quote
I had a set of speakers rated at "500 watts" that I destroyed three tweeters with a 30W amp.  I switch to 500W mono amplifiers for each speaker and never blew a tweeter again.


The 30 watt amp had other defects than simply being too small?

The 500 watt amp scared you sane? ;-)

Quote
Clipping an underpowered amp will destroy the tweeters much faster than using a high powered amplifier will in typical use.


A common misconception.  As rule, excess power is what fries speakers. I guarantee you that if you crank up your 500 watt amps to near clipping while amplifying a 15 KHz sine wave, either the tweeters will be toast, or whatever is protecting them from full power will be protecting them.  There's no way you can get more HF power out of a 30 watt amp than a 500 watt amp if you push both to the max.

The idea that clipping increases the high frequency content of music is not generally true. It may or may not happen. When you clip music it turns into square waves which have a fixed and definite distribution of power over the various frequencies. Some music has less power in the high range than square waves, and much modern music has more.

In general, heavily clipping music makes it sound like mud. One reason for this can be that the music started out with more highs than square waves, and lost highs when it was clipped into square waves.

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The idea that clipping increases the high frequency content of music is not generally true. It may or may not happen. When you clip music it turns into square waves which have a fixed and definite distribution of power over the various frequencies. Some music has less power in the high range than square waves, and much modern music has more.

Clipping turns round waves towards square waves. The transformation from square to round adds odd harmonics to the signal. Harmonics are always higher frequency than the fundamental. This is where the general idea that clipping increases high-frequency content comes from. It is not a misconception. There are exceptions. Obviously, the harmonic content of a pure square wave will not change when clipped. Impulse and white noise signals are other exception candidates I can think of. This is not the sort of program material college students will be straining their stereos with - modern music is not that bad.

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Notat on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The idea that clipping increases the high frequency content of music is not generally true. It may or may not happen. When you clip music it turns into square waves which have a fixed and definite distribution of power over the various frequencies. Some music has less power in the high range than square waves, and much modern music has more.

Clipping turns round waves towards square waves. The transformation from square to round adds odd harmonics to the signal. Harmonics are always higher frequency than the fundamental. This is where the general idea that clipping increases high-frequency content comes from. It is not a misconception.


I never said that it was a misconception. What I said is "When you clip music it turns into square waves which have a fixed and definite distribution of power over the various frequencies. Some music has less power in the high range than square waves, and much modern music has more."

Therefore, turning music into square waves may or may not increase the energy at high frequencies. Back in the 60s when most music had less energy in the high frequencies, then it was more likely that clipping would increase the energy at high frequencies. In 2010, you can't depend on that. In fact, clipping can make much modern music sound muddy and lacking in highs.


My Tweeter went out!

Reply #19 –
When you clip music, you add odd harmonics. That's clearly a mechanism for adding HF content. For the most part, the existing spectrum remains as it was. I guess, as a whole, it is not as loud as it would be if it were not clipped. I don't see a mechanism for removing HF content through simple clipping.

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #20 –
Quote from: Notat on
... I don't see a mechanism for removing HF content through simple clipping.
  A 500W unclipped waveform can easily contain more high-frequency energy than a 30W clipped waveform!

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Notat on
I don't see a mechanism for removing HF content through simple clipping.


Clipping flat-tops the waves. Usually, the tops of the waves are where the high frequencies are. When you clip music, you turn the wiggly lines that represent the highs into straight lines that represent the clipping point.  No wiggles, no highs!

The other thing that clipping does is provide a means by which a power amp can produce a larger, more energetic signal than it would if it were limited to producing sine waves.  An amp that puts out 30 watts without clipping might put out maybe 50 watts of clipped waves. Thing ia, a 50 watt amp can put out maybe 80 watt clipped waves.

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #22 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Clipping flat-tops the waves. Usually, the tops of the waves are where the high frequencies are. When you clip music, you turn the wiggly lines that represent the highs into straight lines that represent the clipping point.  No wiggles, no highs!

The frequency response of a signal that is disjointed as a result of hard clipping has lots of high-frequency energy.

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: DigitalMan on
It is easier to blow a tweeter with a low powered amp pushed into clipping than with a very powerful amp.


A common misconception.

Quote
I had a set of speakers rated at "500 watts" that I destroyed three tweeters with a 30W amp.  I switch to 500W mono amplifiers for each speaker and never blew a tweeter again.


The 30 watt amp had other defects than simply being too small?

The 500 watt amp scared you sane? ;-)

Quote
Clipping an underpowered amp will destroy the tweeters much faster than using a high powered amplifier will in typical use.


A common misconception.  As rule, excess power is what fries speakers. I guarantee you that if you crank up your 500 watt amps to near clipping while amplifying a 15 KHz sine wave, either the tweeters will be toast, or whatever is protecting them from full power will be protecting them.  There's no way you can get more HF power out of a 30 watt amp than a 500 watt amp if you push both to the max.

The idea that clipping increases the high frequency content of music is not generally true. It may or may not happen. When you clip music it turns into square waves which have a fixed and definite distribution of power over the various frequencies. Some music has less power in the high range than square waves, and much modern music has more.

In general, heavily clipping music makes it sound like mud. One reason for this can be that the music started out with more highs than square waves, and lost highs when it was clipped into square waves.


I see your points, although my point is slightly different. 

Certainly a 500W HF sine wave will be more destructive than a 30W.  However, I find that amplifier clipping comes on more suddenly in real world situations than speaker overload. 

Speaker overload distortion is more audible and progressive - many speakers get progressively "harsher" sounding as you turn up the volume due to increasing distortion thus limiting the volume many are willing to endure.  Add in the typical music spectrum that is more "pink" (with decreasing energy by increasing octave) and I find that the sudden burst of high frequency energy that dynamic music clipping on a 30W speaker sends to a tweeter is harder to anticipate in real world playback and more damaging to the tweeter than a clean amplifier signal driving the speaker at equivalently high levels.  Thus I've seen more fried tweeters with low powered amplifiers (including my own and others) and more damaged woofers with high powered ones.

A clipping 30W amp can easily send much more energy (those clipped waveform harmonics) to the tweeter than a high powered amplifier at the same playback level.  By fourier math, clipping a waveform will generate an infinite series of odd harmonic distortion (spectrum of a square wave) with progressively weaker signals as frequency increases, so clipping will always create more high frequency content.  Its strength will depend on the fundamental frequency of the clipped waveform and its amplitude.

Because of the typical music spectrum being more "pink" and low powered amplifier clipping being less progressive (predictable) I think it is advisable to err on the side of higher amplifier power.  My opinion and experience, YMMV.
Was that a 1 or a 0?

My Tweeter went out!

Reply #24 –
A quick, simplified example:

A 30W amp and a 500W amp connected to separate, identical speakers.

Playing (spectraly typical) music at a volume level that results in 30W peaks, both amplifiers produce the same output into their speakers with minimal distortion.

Increase the volume very slightly to a level that requires 35W peaks, now:
1) The 30W amplifier will clip, sending the clipped music signal plus harmonic distortion into the speaker
2) The 500W amplifier will send a clean 35W peak into the speaker

In this instance, the energy into the tweeter may be higher with the 30W amp (signal + clipping induced harmonic distortion) than the 500W amplifier.

Note: the signal to a speaker is roughly 12dB (subjectively sounding a little more than "twice as loud" to the ear) higher with the 500W amplifier at clipping vs. the 30W amplifier, so we need to remember when comparing real-world use that the clipping scenarios are quite different for the two amplifiers.  A clipping 500W amp is definitely sending more energy into the tweeter than a 30W amp clipping, but at more than twice the volume and the speaker possibly sounding harsh in general due to overloading.  So the risk is that at volume levels that routinely overload the 30W amp it will send more harmonic distortion to the tweeter and risk damaging it more than a more powerful amplifier.
Was that a 1 or a 0?