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Topic: Encoding long audio files with chapter stops (Read 8650 times) previous topic - next topic
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Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

I’m working on a reissue project that involves a number of old radio broadcasts. There are almost sixty original broadcasts, all between one and two hours long.

I have digitized the original recordings and they live in my computer as WAV files. Using Adobe Audition 1.5, I’ve restored them (fixed popped “p”s, microphone bumps, feedback, AC hum, clicks, etc.) and then sequenced them in sessions with fade and pan envelopes. When mixed down, each program now runs between 45-95 minutes.

I want to save each show into a single self-contained compressed audio file for download, at iTunes compression rates or better. The file format could be MP3, or it could be a different format as long as basically any consumer could play the file on an iPod, or on their computer using iTunes or some other free player. Because the shows are so long, I want each file to include chapter stops, with up to 100 characters for each chapter description.

I’m working in a PC environment using Windows XP. What’s the most appropriate file format for me to save in, and what software can do the job?

Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

Reply #1 –
I don't think you can do this with mp3. Only the Apple's M4B format container can do it.

Another solution would be to chop the broadcasts up in seperate mp3s for each chapter. But then gaps may appear between chapters because:
- mp3 is not gaples. Certain mp3 edit programs can solve this problem by chopping mp3s by frames
- players might not be able to play songs in a gapless way

Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

Reply #2 –
The main drawback with the M4B approach is compatibility. If you only need it to work iPods and iTunes then that is OK, but many people will not be able to use these files.

Lame mp3 can be gapless, but many players still cannot play gapless. By "old radio broadcasts" I assume you mean radio dramas and similar programs. I wouldn't think gapless would be especially important if you choose the break points carefully.

Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

Reply #3 –
It can be done...and I'm pleased to say it can be done with MP3 files too.

Back in 2005, some clever guys at id3.org developed the chapter addendum for ID3v2.3.
See: http://www.id3.org/id3v2-chapters-1.0

What this means is that for the first time, chapter points or reference markers can be embedded to any MP3 file, along with a separate image for each chapter, URL, description and more.
The downside is, there still (even after all this time) aren't really many players out there capable of supporting the format (yet).

You can download a tool from here, and create your own enhanced MP3s, but again, if you're thinking about distributing the files, you're going to need to think about developing players and plug-ins to match.

On the plus side, when faced with an enhanced MP3, any MP3-player that can't recognise the special chapter tags will simply treat the file as it would a standard MP3 and there should be no compatibility issues. So in theory, you could go ahead and create the files and release them, safe in the knowledge that they'll be 'future-proofed' for such times as such players become standard issue.


I do have an as yet untested theory about including an apple-formatted .xml file that could be read by iTunes/iPods and some other media players, even if that could only be achieved by way of a plug-in, which would make life easier. Essentially, the player would read the .xml instead of the embedded tags and do the same job. BUt as I say, there's more work to do yet on whether this could be feasible.

Going even further back, in 2003, the Audio Publishing Association, together with the Consumer Electronics Association released a new audiobook format based on reading an attached .xml file. Called CEA-2003-C, it was a really neat idea too--but unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have gotten the support it needed from both content producers and manufacturers, so it hasn't really taken off.


Without knowing more about your intended audience, playback platforms and distribution methods, it's hard to give you any specific advice or workaround that would suit your needs.
My team and I are working on some solutions that include the very problem you're facing, but we still have some way to go and of course, you need a solution yesterday.

If releasing the files in the m4b format isn't too much of an issue for you, then Apple's Garageband / Podcast Producer / Chapter Tool (google any of these) will do the trick. There's a lot of support and tutorials and let's face it, a hell of a lot of iPods and iTunes installations out there, so you'd still reach a fairly wide audience. If you're concerned about the non-iPod community, then you could always produce two types of download and let people decide whether they take the standard MP3(s) or go for the enhanced m4b version.

Of course, to run the software, you'd either need a Mac, or run a virtual machine on your PC and install a Mac OS on it, but it IS an option.

Off the top of my head, there are one or two other ways you could get around the problem using standard MP3s, but most involve creating and distributing a player of some kind, along with the audio files. And, it has to be said, that these will only really work for computer-based playback software, and not stand-alone hardware devices.

1) Simple browser-based player, based on a pre-programmed html page. I've done this myself before now. Create a simple html page that you include with your MP3 files, that includes hyperlinks to each of them, in the order you want. One drawback to this is that I sometimes came up against problems with file associations. Sometimes, the audio files can be launched in the user's default player, instead of via your html player, but if I remember rightly, we got around this., so it can be done.

2) There are numerous simple multi-media development tools out there that will allow you to create your own media players, without too much of a learning curve. Most even ship with some kind of ready-made mp3-player template that you can use or adapt. Trouble is, most of these are PC-based, which means you lose many of your Mac and Linux users.

3) If all else fails then, as has already been mentioned, the easiest thing to do would be to split the files up into chapters, give them alpha-numerical names (at least for the beginning of each filename) and then, to be 100% sure, include a playlist file for one-click access.

There are one or two other things you could try, but it's getting late and I have to chip. Sounds like an interesting project. I wish you luck with it. It's early days yet, so no doubt others will be along with some great advice, as usual, but in the meantime, I wish you all the best. If you get stuck, or wish to discuss how I might be able to help you privately, then shoot me a PM, anytime.

[TAG]



Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

Reply #4 –
Some players support cue sheets for mp3.  At least foobar, and winamp with a plugin, that I know of.  Instead of a cue sheet with different track names, you'd call them chapters or parts.  Audition can probably export a cuesheet, or you could create one with a text editor if you know the times.

Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

Reply #5 –
Quote
Back in 2005, some clever guys at id3.org developed the chapter addendum for ID3v2.3.
See: http://www.id3.org/id3v2-chapters-1.0
- theaudiobookguy

Does Apple's Chapter Tool uses ID3V2.3's Chapters or it's own internal schema for generating chapters in what they call Enhanced Podcasts?

Does anyone have a sample MP3 they could upload for me that has ID3v2.3 chapters employed? I've checked the site ( http://sourceforge.net/projects/id3v2-chap-tool/files/ ) and it seems their chapter tool is PC only. So we have ID3V2.3 chapter generation for PC only and Apple's enhanced podcast generation via Chapter Tool for mac only, and neither are compatible.

Wouldn't a first step towards adoption be an app that can generate chapters on any system?

Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

Reply #6 –
Quote
Does Apple's Chapter Tool uses ID3V2.3's Chapters or it's own internal schema for generating chapters in what they call Enhanced Podcasts?

No, that would be too easy!  It uses its own schema. But the ID3 team have done their best to aid cross compatibility, as their chapter tool will read and recognise the xml files that Apple generates with its m4a files, and automatically converts them to ID3 V2.3 frames.

Quote
Does anyone have a sample MP3 they could upload for me that has ID3v2.3 chapters employed?

Sure. Each week, the BBC releases an experimental podcast in m4a form and one of the guys at the BBC (who is also on the ID3 team) takes it and produces an enhanced MP3 version.

M4a Version (with images): http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/moylesen
MP3 Version (with images): http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/navigate/podcast/rss.xml
MP3 version (w/o images): http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/navigate/podcast/rss2.xml

note: I include the link to the enhanced MP3 without images because the PC-based ChapterTool application struggles with ID3 frames over 100KB - this is a limitation of the JMF framework on which it is partially built and not the tool or the specification itself.

Quote
Wouldn't a first step towards adoption be an app that can generate chapters on any system?

Indeed. And that's one of the things we're working on. Contributions and collaborations are welcome, so if you think you could contribute to the effort, then feel free to get in touch.

Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

Reply #7 –
Just for the record, Musepack SV8 supports naively chapters.
However, the only two players that understand Musepack chapters are Foobar2000 (of course) and MusicBee.
In order to import the chapters in Musepack file you need a cuesheet preliminary.
So, maybe using whatever format + cuesheet + player with cuesheet support would be easier anyway.

Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

Reply #8 –
@theaudiobookguy
Thanks for the informative, fast reply. Awesome! You said "we", are you apart of developing the frame solution in id3?

Sort of related, but doing some research today about standards for song data I came across the Digital Data Exchange (DDX) @ http://www.ddex.net/index.htm . Of particular note, their recent meeting involved developing their standard to "allow the communication of 'cue sheets' ". If by cue sheets they mean chapters, this could be interesting.

Back to the discussion though, if I understand it correctly, if we could develop a universal and easy to use chapter tool maker utilizing ID3 that would seem to be the best way to get wider support for chapters, since ID3 is already well accepted just not fully with its latest features?

Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

Reply #9 –
Quote from: jayepoch on
Sort of related, but doing some research today about standards for song data I came across the Digital Data Exchange (DDX) @ http://www.ddex.net/index.htm . Of particular note, their recent meeting involved developing their standard to "allow the communication of 'cue sheets' ". If by cue sheets they mean chapters, this could be interesting.

Well, it was in reference to video so in context they probably mean:
"Cue Sheet - # A list of music played in a television or film for rights purposes, such as those filed with ASCAP (CUE & A: Everything You Need To Know About Cue Sheets)." - wikipedia
Cool, but not our definition of a cue sheet.

Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

Reply #10 –
Quote
You said "we", are you apart of developing the frame solution in id3?

Well, the ID3 chapter addendum is complete and has been since 2005, so there really isn't any more work to do on developing the spec itself.
And no, sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression I'm part of the ID3.org team. However, I am lucky enough to be working very closely with the guy who wrote the framework and my small team and I are helping to breathe new life into the project, so it certainly feels like we're playing a part in it. 
We are working on developing Chapter Tools and players for a variety of platforms and some other audio technology projects that aren't exactly related to this thread.

Being the Director of the UK Audiobook Publishing Association, I'm fantastically well-placed to promote the ID3 chapter spec widely within the publishing industry. Admittedly, I don't hold much sway with many manufacturers yet, but if we can convince publishers to release enough of their material in the new format, getting manufacturers to upgrade their firmware to be compatible will be that much easier.

There's no question that this new spec is a good move for the audiobook / audio publishing industry, the trouble is that a) there aren't enough players and playback devices out there that support it and b) now that Apple's own enhanced audio format has been around long enough, with a wide footprint and a multitude of content, it's very likely that manufacturers will be far quicker to support .m4a/.m4b playback first.

Years ago, if you tried to convince a Publisher to release material in .m4a/.m4b, they'd have knocked you back flat. Nowadays, it's a different story--in fact, many Publishing houses are actually using iTunes to convert their audio files to MP3, so the switch to m4a/m4b is not nearly so difficult to get their heads around.

Which, ironically, can still be good news for MP3+. Firstly, all that iTunes/iPod promotion has done a lot to showcase the benefits of compressed audio files and especially the enhanced, chapterised file formats. And since not everyone wants to be tied in to Apple, Enhanced MP3 files provide a desirable alternative. Plus, because it is MP3 and because the files are fully backwards-compatible, (they will still play on unsupported devices, just without the extra features), publishers can be confident of releasing their material, knowing it's both future-proofed and backwards-compatible.

Quote
If we could develop a universal and easy to use chapter tool maker utilizing ID3 that would seem to be the best way to get wider support for chapters, since ID3 is already well accepted just not fully with its latest features?

Spot on. Like I say, that's the plan, but sadly, it's only a part of it. We're probably closer than anyone right now in doing just that, but there's still a lot of work involved, especially when it comes to selling the concept to publishers and manufacturers, which is where I'm putting a lot of my personal efforts. This means I have less time for the technical side of things though, which is why I welcome offers from those who may wish to participate.

Not only that, but I've got more publishing opportunities coming in than I can handle, so I'm always on the look out for talented engineers, programmers and designers. Err, hint. 


[TAG]

Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

Reply #11 –
There is a standard "DAISY " for audio books for Visually Handicapped (VH) people. And there are players to play those audio books. This helps VH people to comfortably navigate from chapter to chapter and then in any chapter, from para to para or from page to page etc. There are software players also available for PC use, to play these books in a PC. This standard may help in your case also. Free software like OBI is available to convert normal audio files to Daisy format.

Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

Reply #12 –
I'd advise looking into Matroska as a container format. Matroska can handle most audio formats and allows for setting chapters. When using Win XP foobar will show those chapters as tracks. Though I doubt any other audio player out there can handle matroska that way. The other possible solution would be cuesheets, though this probably won't work with most players out there. Fact is, most solution will probably only be supported by 1 or 2 softwares/platforms, so there isn't any one definite solution, sadly.
It's only audiophile if it's inconvenient.

Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

Reply #13 –
Quote from: theaudiobookguy on
Quote
Does anyone have a sample MP3 they could upload for me that has ID3v2.3 chapters employed?

Sure. Each week, the BBC releases an experimental podcast in m4a form and one of the guys at the BBC (who is also on the ID3 team) takes it and produces an enhanced MP3 version.

M4a Version (with images): http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/moylesen
MP3 Version (with images): http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/navigate/podcast/rss.xml
MP3 version (w/o images): http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/navigate/podcast/rss2.xml


Well, I've downloaded both mp3 files and I cannot see any chapters inside (accordind to specification), no CHAP or CTOC frames.  Both Foobar2000 and Winamp don't see chapters as well. Do I miss something?

Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

Reply #14 –
As I see it, no single solution with embedded chapters is anywhere near sufficiently broad compatibility, yet. The sweet spot would be a dual format release as m4b and zipped up one-mp3-per-chapter collection.

Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

Reply #15 –
Quote from: rpp3po on
...
The sweet spot would be a dual format release as m4b and zipped up one-mp3-per-chapter collection.

What player is supposed to play such file?

Encoding long audio files with chapter stops

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Antonski on
Well, I've downloaded both mp3 files and I cannot see any chapters inside (accordind to specification), no CHAP or CTOC frames.  Both Foobar2000 and Winamp don't see chapters as well. Do I miss something?

Hmm. First of all, it's worth noting that the links are static, but the content is changed weekly, so what was uploaded the previous week is not available the next week.
I can assure you that previous uploads were indeed in the enhanced MP3 format, but having downloaded and checked them just now, the ones that are currently available appear to be standard MP3 files with no chapter enhancements whatsoever.

So you're not doing anything wrong, and the only thing 'missing' is the enhanced MP3 files.
I'll need to investigate to find out what has happened or the reason for the change in policy (if that's what it is).
I'll come back to this thread with an update.