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Topic: Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player (Read 12058 times) previous topic - next topic
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Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Hello,
Right now I have an iPod classic with the firmware at version 1.1.2. If I buy a dock for my iPod so I can hook the line-out directly to my receiver, what will the quality be like (assuming I'm using a lossless format)? I have been thinking about buying a squeezebox for awhile, but I just assume use my iPod if the quality is good enough. So, how is the line-out quality for an iPod classic compared with the original cd played through a standalone cd player? If I choose to buy a squeezebox, how will the output quality of that (again assume I'm using a lossless format) compare to the original cd played through a standalone cd player?

Thanks!!

Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #1 –
I would like to remind respondents that any and all answers must comply with HA's Terms of Service, specifically #8:

Quote
8. All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality, must -- to the best of their ability -- provide objective support for their claims. Acceptable means of support are double blind listening tests (ABX or ABC/HR) demonstrating that the member can discern a difference perceptually, together with a test sample to allow others to reproduce their findings. Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on, are not acceptable means of providing support.
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Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #2 –
You can't get much more accurate than the line-out on the Classic.
I can't find a full set of RMAA graphs, but three out of four of the key ones (IMHO) are HERE.

EDIT:
Is this a TOS #8 violation?  I'm making no claim outside the faithfulness of reproduction, which (I think) can only be proven through a test such as RMAA.  I assume the TOS #8 ban on graphs is in response to people posting spectrums of lossy files and other similar actions?
Creature of habit.

Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Soap on
Is this a TOS #8 violation?  I'm making no claim outside the faithfulness of reproduction, which (I think) can only be proven through a test such as RMAA.  I assume the TOS #8 ban on graphs is in response to people posting spectrums of lossy files and other similar actions?


Its not a TOS #8 violation since you're not making a subjective claim about perceived quality.  A double blind test of an DAC would probably be considered a little silly here anyway, since tools like RMAA are generally more powerful and no less objective.

Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #4 –
I'm really hoping we avoid the regular nonsense about air, warmth, sound-stage and the like.

Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #5 –
OK, let's see if I can comment on this while dancing on the tightrope of TOS #8...

I own an iPod 5.5G, CD players, 2 Squeezebox SB3s, 1 Squeezebox Duet, and a Squeezebox Reciever (SBR).  Prior to having my Squeezeboxes, I used my iPod with the line out on the dock.  Switching between the 3, I never thought to myself "gee, this sounds bad, I should go back to listening to the other device".

That's all I'll say regarding sound quality.

However, I will comment on some benefits and issues you may encounter that have nothing to do with sound quality.

Since you are playing lossless files on your iPod, you must be using Apple Lossless.  These can be played on the Squeezebox, but they must be transcoded (to FLAC or WAV) by the server because the Apple Lossless format is not a native format.  If you are running Linux for your server, getting this configured will require some work - it won't work out of the box.  Windows and MAC OS are less difficult to configure in this regard.

With transcoded formats, issues can arise with syncing players and acheiving gapless playback.  If you decide to go with the SB and continue to use Apple Lossless, you should check out the forums at www.slimdevices.com and read up on where things stand at the moment.  They are currently working on these types of issues for the next release of the server software.  If you only have one player, syncing isn't an issue :-).

The squeezebox is an amazing device and can change how you listen to music.  Having instant access to ALL of your music (not just what you can fit onto your iPod) from the couch via a remote control (or web page) is pretty amazing.  I'm listening to my SB right now and controlling it through the web UI.

When you consider the SB as a solution for listening to music on your home stereo, consider aspects other than sound quality - though the sound quality is quite good.  In addition to being able to play music from your own library, you have access to Last.fm, Pandora, various internet radio stations, and Slacker for free (in the US anyway).  If you are a Rhapsody fan - you can access your Rhapsody account too.

In short, I think you will find that the SB sound quality will at least match an iPod connected to your stereo via a dock.  From there, the SB will give you access to music in ways you have never imagined.

Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #6 –
Be advised that the original Apple iPod dock will use the headphone output (the ipod's volume control actually works) instead of the line out if you plug in a 6th-generation iPod classic and connect it to an amp or receiver.

Because the iPod's headphone output is volume-capped by default, there does exist the slight problem of low volume over a line-in connection so you'll have to really crank up the amp for louder playback. I did not experience extra noise or distortion, though.

Funny enough: the cheap Belkin dock-to-cinch-connector cable (that I additionally bought) uses the iPod's line out instead of the headphone output.
The name was Plex The Ripper, not Jack The Ripper
 

Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #7 –
Quote
but I just assume use my iPod if the quality is good enough


Why do people always make "quality" assumptions about the output quality on the IPod being "descent"? That's the fourth post in the last month were I have seen this. I am not really that big on RMAA tests, but the RMAA tests most of the time consistently show otherwise.  My favorite thread was the one with the user who  kept proclaiming the output quality on the Nano was poor when the RMAA test done said it was good. Somebody has to develop a website that has multiple graphs of RMAA test results on the various DAP that exist out there so people will stop making these "assumptions". That's just a suggestion. 
budding I.T professional

Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #8 –
Dunno about everyone else but I was under the impression that when using the line out, the ipod does not do anything in terms of processing the sound (volume, eq, etc.) all it does is decode the song and send it on its way.  it would then be up to the receiver and speakers to determine quality.  So in that case wouldn't quality of the sound produced from either an ipod or squeezebox or what ever be more dependent on the decoder being used rather then the hardware.  Or am I missing something.

Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #9 –
Quote from: jimmy69 on
Dunno about everyone else but I was under the impression that when using the line out, the ipod does not do anything in terms of processing the sound (volume, eq, etc.) all it does is decode the song and send it on its way.  it would then be up to the receiver and speakers to determine quality.  So in that case wouldn't quality of the sound produced from either an ipod or squeezebox or what ever be more dependent on the decoder being used rather then the hardware.  Or am I missing something.

You are forgetting that the ipod or squeezebox must convert the digital data to analog through its internal DAC and filter. This is where the quality difference, if any, would occur.

Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #10 –
Quote from: HotshotGG on
Quote
but I just assume use my iPod if the quality is good enough


Why do people always make "quality" assumptions about the output quality on the IPod being "descent"? That's the fourth post in the last month were I have seen this. I am not really that big on RMAA tests, but the RMAA tests most of the time consistently show otherwise.  My favorite thread was the one with the user who  kept proclaiming the output quality on the Nano was poor when the RMAA test done said it was good.


You appear to be confusing the Line-level RMAA tests with the headphone-loaded tests.  Historically there has been a large discrepancy between the two with the iPods in particular (though there is varying amounts of difference between all DAPs).  I have not seen enough properly done tests to know off hand how well the Classic measures in this regard.
Creature of habit.

Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #11 –
Quote
You appear to be confusing the Line-level RMAA tests with the headphone-loaded tests. Historically there has been a large discrepancy between the two with the iPods in particular (though there is varying amounts of difference between all DAPs). I have not seen enough properly done tests to know off hand how well the Classic measures in this regard.


ok I was thinking of the headphone-loaded test. Somebody needs to create a website with a number of user submitted results for the various DAP. I don't know how many tests you can actually perform, but I still think it would be a good idea. It would help to shed some light on the subject.
budding I.T professional

Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #12 –
Right forgot about the DAC.  Well I connect my ipod to my home stereo through the line-out and all I can say is it sounds fine to me, I've got no proof or graphs or anything to show how the ipod sounds just experience using the line-out, which again sounds perfectly fine.  Still I'd be tempted to get a squeezebox because can't that stream music over a network from a computer, which I think is really cool.

Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #13 –
Quote from: kurt770 on
I have been thinking about buying a squeezebox for awhile, ...

I won't comment on the sound quality issues, but would like to make a point about practicalities.

If you put an iPod in a dock (or use a CD player) that's all you need - plus the stereo system to feed it to, of course.

But if you use a Squeezebox, you'll need to run SqueezeCenter on a server PC somewhere. There are network connections to consider. I'm not saying it's difficult - it you already have a server running 24/7 and a network, then it's a breeze. But just keep in mind that the Squeezebox is not a standalone product.

I'm not bashing the Squeezebox, BTW. I'm a huge fan of the Slim Devices system (I have an SB2, a Duet and a Transporter). But I just wanted to point out that going down that route requires a degree of commitment to setting the system up.

Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #14 –
Thanks everybody!
It's good to know that the line out from the classic won't be nearly as bad as other people on the internet have claimed....
For my main sound system, I am going with the squeezebox
But, I'm thinking about using my ipod for my other lower-end receiver in the house (Onkyo TX-SR506). Because the iPod only outputs in analog, does that mean for that receiver the process will go:
Digital (original song) --> Analog ---> Digital (the receiver step) ---> Analog (the speaker step)
I hope that makes sense .... I'm not sure if all digital receivers work that way, or if the receiver will just not use its own DAC.

Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #15 –
Quote from: kurt770 on
Because the iPod only outputs in analog, does that mean for that receiver the process will go:
Digital (original song) --> Analog ---> Digital (the receiver step) ---> Analog (the speaker step)
I hope that makes sense .... I'm not sure if all digital receivers work that way, or if the receiver will just not use its own DAC.

"Digital receiver" means it has a DAC and can decode digital content.  It does not mean the receiver works primarily, much less only, in the digital domain.  So the process is:
Digital (original song) --> Analog (iPod's DAC) --> Analog (Preamp switching) --> Analog (power amplifier) and so on.
This is identical to if you used a normal CD/DVD player with analog outputs.

Quote from: HotshotGG on
Somebody needs to create a website with a number of user submitted results for the various DAPs.

While not an expert on copyright law, I would assume any graphs made are "property" of their creator, so it isn't like you can just run around harvesting all the ones others have done.
Since most of us don't have that wide of a variety of DAPs passing through our hands* you would be left with the option of either begging for submissions, or contacting the original graph creator and asking for permission for each and every one.

It isn't like entering "< DAP > RMAA" in google is so hard, anyway.





*I buy and sell DAPs for kicks and extracurricular spending money, and have probably only ever touched ten different non-iPod models out of the  hundreds of units which have passed through my hands.
Creature of habit.

Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #16 –
Quote from: HotshotGG on
Somebody has to develop a website that has multiple graphs of RMAA test results on the various DAP that exist out there so people will stop making these "assumptions". That's just a suggestion. 


Various RMAA tests

The iPod also done very well in this RMAA test.

Anandtech

As somebody has already said, there is a difference between unloaded and loaded (with headphones) RMAA results.  Many players have good RMAA results when unloaded but do not do well with low impedance (less than ~50 ohms) headphones.  With high impedance headphones or when used as a line out to something that has high input impedance, many portable players have good RMAA results.

Personally, I did a volume matched test (high and low impedance loads) between a Sansa Fuze and something that was much better on paper.  I couldn't tell the difference.

Quality: iPod Classic line out vs. Squeezebox vs. CD player

Reply #17 –
Thanks again everyone!