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Topic: Cue Sheet & Accuraterip (Read 7368 times) previous topic - next topic
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Cue Sheet & Accuraterip

Hi all,
with the new features provided by the new Cuetools release I happened to have two questions:

1- So far & according to my knowledge, I always thought that ripping as single file+cue was better than ripping as separate tracks+cue (gaps appended to the previous track) because there was always a chance that the gap information would be lost with a splitted files CUE.
But with the new Cuetools you can create a fake CUE file from the splitted audio files, so my question is what is the difference between a cue sheet (gaps appended to the previous track) created from EAC in which the gap info is lost & a fake cue sheet created with the new cuetools directly from already ripped file (with gaps appended to the previous track too) ???

Am I right thinking Single file CUE is always better for gaps or does it rely on gap detection setting in EAC too ? (so far I always ripped as single file without caring about it at all)

2- So far I never used Accuraterip, because I always thought the accuracy of it was relative, I am right to think that if a guy burn a downloaded lossless cd & rip it again with bad offset & report to accuraterip site will add a new entry for the same disk-key in the database. Is there a risk of database pollution from generation loss of bad offset ? I mean as if the database would add it as a new pressing while it is just a "burned & re-ripped" instead of an original rip ? Same problem for CD ripped from burned from lossy files ... same disk-ID with differents CRCs no ? I need to get an answer to this question before I can see any usefullness for accuraterip.

Thks.

Cue Sheet & Accuraterip

Reply #1 –
Regarding the first question, I believe these three links may help.

Cue Sheet & Accuraterip

Reply #2 –
Thks for the links, it seems to work like I was thinking, as far as I understund you can never be 100% sure that you can reproduce the original structure of the cd with a CUE from separate files ... I guess that why I have been using single file rips for so long ...

As for my 1 question personaly I think there shouldn't be much difference (if any) between a fake CUE & an original CUE with separate file (specially if both  were ripped with gaps appended to the previous track) as both are unreliable concerning the original structure due to HTOA.

For me the main problem is fake single file cue sheet ...

Cue Sheet & Accuraterip

Reply #3 –
Quote
2- So far I never used Accuraterip, because I always thought the accuracy of it was relative, I am right to think that if a guy burn a downloaded lossless cd & rip it again with bad offset & report to accuraterip site will add a new entry for the same disk-key in the database. Is there a risk of database pollution from generation loss of bad offset ? I mean as if the database would add it as a new pressing while it is just a "burned & re-ripped" instead of an original rip ? Same problem for CD ripped from burned from lossy files ... same disk-ID with differents CRCs no ? I need to get an answer to this question before I can see any usefullness for accuraterip.


If a CD existed already then the 'bogus' submission would have to be verified from a 2nd computer, so if the guy really wanted to he could get his result into AR.

Once in AR it will take up 1 out of 4 billion possible 'slots', there is almost 0 chances of that disc making your AR configure with a wrong offset (if using EAC or dBpoweramp) because you would need 3 discs with matching offsets to configure a drive not in the database. For those drives in the database only 1 is needed (which matches the database), for drives with a high submission value it is impossible to configure to the offset which is not in the database.

If you are worried about this 'one slot' giving bad results, you are looking at AR from the wrong side, AR is a verification system, if you rip a disc it will say wether it matches or does not what is in the database, the chances of your disc having an error which matches the 'bogus' submission are 1 in 4 billion (or never if your disc ripped without error).

Cue Sheet & Accuraterip

Reply #4 –
Quote from: sauvage78 on
Thks for the links, it seems to work like I was thinking, as far as I understund you can never be 100% sure that you can reproduce the original structure of the cd with a CUE from separate files ... I guess that why I have been using single file rips for so long ...

As for my 1 question personaly I think there shouldn't be much difference (if any) between a fake CUE & an original CUE with separate file (specially if both  were ripped with gaps appended to the previous track) as both are unreliable concerning the original structure due to HTOA.
Nonsense!  You must not have understood the links you were given.

You can recreate the original CD structure from a CUE with separate files in all instances provided the right CUE is created and that a pregap line has been included prior to the first track if necessary (EAC didn't include this in sheets created with versions prior to V0.95b1).

Quote from: spoon on
the chances of your disc having an error which matches the 'bogus' submission are 1 in 4 billion
You're ignoring the fact that at least one sample out of every 65,536 samples is not used in the calculation which increases the odds significantly (over 61,000 times greater than what you've specified).

Cue Sheet & Accuraterip

Reply #5 –
Quote
out of every 65,536 samples is not used in the calculation which increases the odds significantly.


Even so it is nothing to worry about (that a rip with errors would match a submission which was either bogus, or another rip with errors if they had manged to get into the database), and remember each track is handled on its own, so if you are ripping a CD and all the tracks have a 50 confidence (ie 50 people had submitted that result) and one track has a 2 confidence then investigate it.

Cue Sheet & Accuraterip

Reply #7 –
Well I just tested with one of my CD to see on a real case I ended with:

Code: [Select]
REM COMMENT "ExactAudioCopy v0.99pb4"
FILE "01 - Pantera - Strength Beyond Strength.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
	PREGAP 00:00:32
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "02 - Pantera - Becoming.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "03 - Pantera - 5 Minutes Alone.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 03 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "04 - Pantera - I'm Broken.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 04 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "05 - Pantera - Good Friends And A Bottle Of Pills.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 05 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "06 - Pantera - Hard Lines, Sunken Cheeks.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 06 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "07 - Pantera - Slaughtered.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 07 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "08 - Pantera - 25 Years.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 08 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "09 - Pantera - Shedding Skin.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 09 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "10 - Pantera - Use My Third Arm.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 10 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "11 - Pantera - Throes Of Rejection.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 11 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "12 - Pantera - Planet Caravan.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 12 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
Code: [Select]
REM COMMENT "CUETools generated dummy CUE sheet"
FILE "01 - Pantera - Strength Beyond Strength.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "02 - Pantera - Becoming.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "03 - Pantera - 5 Minutes Alone.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 03 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "04 - Pantera - I'm Broken.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 04 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "05 - Pantera - Good Friends And A Bottle Of Pills.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 05 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "06 - Pantera - Hard Lines, Sunken Cheeks.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 06 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "07 - Pantera - Slaughtered.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 07 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "08 - Pantera - 25 Years.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 08 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "09 - Pantera - Shedding Skin.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 09 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "10 - Pantera - Use My Third Arm.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 10 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "11 - Pantera - Throes Of Rejection.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 11 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "12 - Pantera - Planet Caravan.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 12 AUDIO
	INDEX 01 00:00:00
so the only difference after deleting useless REM, TITLE & PERFORMER is :
PREGAP 00:00:32 in the true EAC CUE

so as far as I understund I lost 32 millisecond of silence before the first track with the fake CUE (& the HTOA if there were any) right ???

so to resume:
1: CDImage+CUE= no loss in CD structure, never
2: CD files+ EAC CUE (Appended to previous track) = gap before track 1 saved BUT HTOA lost if not checked manually
3: dummy cuetools CUE sheet = gap before track 1 lost & HTOA lost, always

furthermore according to what you said, if I would have used an EAC version prior to V0.95b1 the gap before track 1 would have been lost too ending in the two CUE cuetools or EAC being exactly the same ...

... I always use CDImage+CUE so it's not big problem for me, but I wanted to know for sure what was lost if ever I re-joined with Cuetools rips done by friends of mine

in the end I don't like dummy cue sheet much ... I can see a use for this if you want to join separate file (foobar already does this) ... but I don't see the point of creating a dummy cue sheet for separate file & keeping files separated ... because in this case it's not a CUE sheet ... it's just a playlist ... but maybe I missed something ...

I don't really understand too why gap before track 1 was keeped after V0.95b1 & not the HTOA ... I don't care if the CUE is compliant or not ... if you keep the CUE it means you want the complete structure ... even with splitted files

I don't see the point of using anal lossless secured rip correcting the offset & not caring about HTOA like many users seems to be doing ...

for accuraterip let's take two real cases too:
example 1:
I just set up my drive using 3 valids CD, so my offset is valid & I can send my result to the accuraterip database, if I encode one of my CD to mp3 then burn it & rip it again. Will the accuraterip database accept my result as if it was a new pressing or not ? Do my fake lossy pressing need to be verified by at least a second guy to be accepted in the database ?

example 2:
I just set up my drive using 3 valids CD, so my offset is valid & I can send my result to the accuraterip database, if I rip of my CD to lossless then burn it & rip it again. Unfortunatly the burning process modify the offset by+10. Will the accuraterip database accept my result as if it was a new pressing or not ? Do my fake offset +10 pressing need to be verified by at least a second guy to be accepted in the database ?

I need simple answers to these questions because I am not a native english so my understanding is relative when the discussion becomes too technical ... sorry

Edit: thx for answering so far

[!--sizeo:1--][span style=\"font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\"][!--/sizeo--]Moderation: Code changed to codebox.[/size]

Cue Sheet & Accuraterip

Reply #8 –
It seems we're operating on different meanings of the term structure.  When you talk about the structure of a building you don't refer to its furnishings.  I apply the same meaning when talking about a CD.  The structure consists of the TOC information (which includes the start point of the first track, from which the size of the first track pregap is determined) and possibly the remaining index information; but not the audio data.

Quote
but I don't see the point of creating a dummy cue sheet for separate file & keeping files separated ... because in this case it's not a CUE sheet ... it's just a playlist
No, it's still a CUE sheet which is not the same thing as a playlist.  Compare the contents and you'll see they're different.  Yes, you can use a CUE sheet as a playlist, but to me this is a bastardization.  What about a CUE sheet that includes non-01 indices but doesn't have a pregap line or reference to data that comprises HTOA, is it not a CUE sheet?  It certainly can't be used as a playlist with recent versions of foobar2000.  It can be used to burn a copy, however; even if the structure is not maintained.  In the case of compliant sheets, they can be used to mount images to virtual drives, even if they call out multiple files.  Sounds like the definition of a CUE sheet in my book.

Quote
I don't see the point of using anal lossless secured rip correcting the offset & not caring about HTOA like many users seems to be doing ...
Many drives cannot extract HTOA and often HTOA consists of nothing but silence anyway (null samples or low-level noise).  Either way, copies missing this data but having the correct structure can still be verified by AR.

Quote
I just set up my drive using 3 valids CD, so my offset is valid & I can send my result to the accuraterip database, if I encode one of my CD to mp3 then burn it & rip it again. Will the accuraterip database accept my result as if it was a new pressing or not ?
Assuming your copy generates the same disc ID and only if you modify your computer ID which AR uses (reinstall your Windows) or if you use a different computer, then it will be the same pressing so long as there is no offset between the original and the copy; otherwise the submission will be a different pressing.  If your copy doesn't have the same disc ID then your submission will be considered a different disc and can be made without changing your computer ID.

Quote
Do my fake lossy pressing need to be verified by at least a second guy to be accepted in the database ?
If the disc ID is unique then no; otherwise, yes, provided you're not trying to submit using the same computer ID or AR will drop your submission.

This response should have answered your second example as well.

Cue Sheet & Accuraterip

Reply #9 –
Thks for the info about the computer ID I wasn't aware AR was using this ...

as far as I know the disc ID is calculated from total lenght & number of tracks, no ? so the disk-ID should be the same as an original in my both exemples no ?

so for exemple 1:
- I will submit a pack of CRCs that nobody agrees with for an existing disk-ID
& for exemple 2:
- I will submit a new pressing (different offset) with a pack of CRCs that everybody agree with for an existing disk-ID

I think I understand better: accuraterip is accurate for the audio data but can't tell if the pressing is official or not ?  right ?

furthermore it's not accurate if there is only 1 result in the database ...

if it works like this I like it better now ...

for CUE sheet that doesn't contain the CD layout, well indeed it's technically a CUE ... but I don't consider an MP3 file full of silence to be an MP3 ... for me it's silence ...

Quote
Many drives cannot extract HTOA

so some drives cannot extract HTOA even with single file+cue ? if it's the case then yes after V0.95b1 ... Single+cue & separate file+cue are both as safe concerning the original layout ... I also understand your views better now

the more I learn the more I begin to think that trying to keep the original CD layout is a useless game ... only the audio data matters ...

again thks for the answers

Cue Sheet & Accuraterip

Reply #10 –
Quote from: sauvage78 on
as far as I know the disc ID is calculated from total lenght & number of tracks, no ? so the disk-ID should be the same as an original in my both exemples no ?
No.  They are also based on the start point of each track, so a disc created from tracks will generate a different ID depending on the position of the first track (HTOA/pregap changes the position of the first track).  Data from enhanced discs influence the disc ID as well.

I don't understand what you're getting at with this...
Quote
so for exemple 1:
- I will submit a pack of CRCs that nobody agrees with for an existing disk-ID
& for exemple 2:
- I will submit a new pressing (different offset) with a pack of CRCs that everybody agree with for an existing disk-ID
...but let me make a few points:
  • For a given computer ID, AR only accepts the first submission for each disc ID.
  • In the case where AR has a record for your disc: for checksums don't match those in the record, they will not be added until there is a match from a submission with a different computer ID.  For checksums that do match, the confidence will increment.
  • In the case where AR does not have a record for your disc, a new one will be created from your submission.
Quote
accuraterip is accurate for the audio data but can't tell if the pressing is official or not ?  right ?
That's correct.

Quote
furthermore it's not accurate if there is only 1 result in the database ...
If you've ripped something and get a confidence of 1, at it wasn't your submission, then the chances are reasonably strong that the rip is accurate.  If it was your submission then this is similar to performing test and copy and getting matching CRCs.

Quote
so some drives cannot extract HTOA even with single file+cue ?
Yes, that's correct.

Cue Sheet & Accuraterip

Reply #11 –
Thks a lot for the time you spend to answer  greynol

In the end it will not change anything to the way I rip my CD ==> Single File Secure No C2/ AS / Defeat Cache without Accuraterip ...

I will only consider Separate Tracks better if there is an EAC CUE ... (Will not care as much as before for HTOA, but I still care for track 1 pre-gap)

There should be an accurate rip entry in the knowledge database ... because the official site doesn't tell all you said ... to end this thread may I ask where did you get these info ? ... reading the boards or maybe there is an "how to" in EAC or DBpoweramp that I missed ?

see ya thks