Paradigm Monitor 11s VS. B&W 683s

2008-09-17 02:32:44

Hey guys, this is my first post on HA.  I've been creeping around here for a while whenever I needed a good source of info, but now I needed to ask a question myself. 

I've been shopping around for a good set of floorstanders in the $1500(give or take)/pair range.  There are 2 big home theater stores in my area.  One carries primarily Paradigm speakers and the other B&W.  I initially was looking at the Paradigm Studio 60's, which the salesman was offering for $1400 (last year's model).  The 60's didn't have enough bass for my music.  But I discovered the Monitor 11s ($1400) and I was really impressed with what they offered for the price.  But now, I've listened to the B&W 683 and I'm torn.  The 683's seem to have more clarity and detail (vague, I know) but I don't have any real frame of reference considering I did the listening tests on 2 different days in 2 different listening environments.  I'm trying to figure out a way to get both speakers in the same place and do a listening test that way to determine which I like best.  I though about purchasing the B&Ws and taking them to the other store to set side by side with the Paradigms.  While testing the Paradigms, the salesman had a remote to switch between 2 sets of speakers, and it really helped me hear the differences between all the speakers there.  So I was hoping to get him to do that with the B&W's.  ANYWAY, basically what I'm asking is:  Do you think it is rude to ask a Paradigm salesman to hook up and compare his speakers to another brand?  And can you make any other suggestions to accomplish this?

Thanks in advance for any help!

Paradigm Monitor 11s VS. B&W 683s

Reply #1 – 2008-09-18 01:18:38

Bump.  I also wanted to add that the Monitor 11's are V.5 and not V.6...I know that the V.6s sell for around $1400, so I don't know if that should affect the price of the V.5s.  Again, any help is appreciated.

Paradigm Monitor 11s VS. B&W 683s

Reply #2 – 2008-09-18 04:10:22

Just a commentary and not a review or judgment on either of your loudspeaker choices, which are both excellent, IMHO.  I have done the same sort of trial/experiment in the past at a very understanding dealer.  It is a VERY difficult procedure to compare loudspeakers in this way.  The tendency is to prefer the louder of two speakers.  With an A/B switch and a fixed volume setting on the driving amplifier/pre-amp the more efficient loudspeakers will be... louder.  It is such a simple thing, but you can fool yourself into being convinced that you "prefer" a particular loudspeaker over another when, in reality, it's just a bit more efficient and, thus, a bit louder.  It's subtle, it's known (if I had the sources at hand, i'd reference them), and, in my experience, a common pitfall.  It's the similar reason that the nearly painfully loud car stereo attracts the most people.  We just tend to think the louder is "better".  The comparison you propose seems easy and straightforward, but really is not.  Your listening room will be different than the show room, your equipment will be different, and making an accurate comparison is exceedingly difficult.  The loudspeaker/room interaction is very complex and impossible to predict.  Just wanting to interject some info from my past experience.

That scribbled, the two loudspeakers you mention, "I" believe are both very good choices. I have Paradigm Active Studio 20s (I think) and love 'em.  A friend has B&W 8??/9?? (something, I can't remember the model #. We're usually into a couple whiskies by then)  I like my Paradigms... he likes his B&Ws....  Both good manufacturers building good long lasting equipment (so far as I still know) My taller, narrower Paradigms fit better into my room and my friend's B&Ws look great in his room.  Seriously, not trying to be facetious, the "feel" is important too.  I think, at some level, you're chasing the unknowable, the indeterminant, the irrelevent subtlety.  If you like them; they're good.  AND they need to sound good in YOUR room not just the showroom.

And as an additional qualifier:
I've done (tried) a long process of trying to volume match two speakers with an SPL meter in order to do an "accurate" comparison.  (My Active 20's to a pair of PSD gold's (PSD?))  Had an audio frequency spectrum analyzer, a very good (+/- .05db) filtered SPL meter and a talented EE.  In the end, 3 of us, so called "Audiofiles" decided that we ALL preferred (>7/10) a set of $200 Pinnacles over 2 other $1500 speakers in doubleblind ABX testing where the $200 speakers were set intentioanlly ~+.5dB louder than the others.  (This crushed my "audiofile" spirit.) And that we couldn't really tell the difference between the three systems when set as closely as possible in volume. (Admittedly, this was VERY difficult to do.)  Easy picking happened when significant differences in response came into play; like when the little Pinnacles couldn't produce deep loud bass at louder volumes, or when there were some "huffing" noises in the bass at REALLY loud volumes. (Caol Isla will encourage that.)  Our results differed with setup in each other's homes, with each other's equipment, as well.  Frequency response varied hugely in one room versus another.

If one dealer will let you take a pair to another dealer for comparison, why not ask if BOTH dealers will let you compare the speakers at home?  They don't need to know you are comparing. (Ethically, you might want to tell both, but... ) Just make sure they will both let you return them if you don't like them.  Treat the speakers delicately until you know which ones you want, keep the preferred pair, return the other in new condition and enjoy the music.

Long post, eh?  Sorry if it's too long.  Old Guardian and Old Pulteney do that to me.  My suggestion is, ask both places if you can return the loudspeakers if you don't like them.  Take them home, set them up. Swap, play and pick the ones that you like, or, at very least, that look best in your "listening" room. $1400 is allot of money (to me) for a set of speakers, I think you want to make sure you like them in the place where you are going to listen to them and quaff with them.

Have a nice day,
-JWiels

Paradigm Monitor 11s VS. B&W 683s

Reply #3 – 2008-09-18 23:13:19

Thanks JWiels, I really hadn't even considered that, but you have what seems to be a very valid point.  I'm going back tomorrow to see if I can trial both/either pair at home for a couple days.  When you "borrow" speakers, I assume they give you the floor model or another broken-in set for the trial...can anyone confirm this?  I've never done this before.  Thanks again for the help.

Paradigm Monitor 11s VS. B&W 683s

Reply #4 – 2008-09-19 00:25:52

It doesn't matter, because there is no such thing as "break in", except of in some peoples heads. What exists is ones own "adjustment period" to the speakers - so, "getting used to them", and this can have a perceivable impact on perception... whats coming out of the speakers however, doesn't change.

Paradigm Monitor 11s VS. B&W 683s

Reply #5 – 2008-09-19 00:39:34

Okay, wow.  I had always heard that speakers had a break-in period and they sound better once you do so...but I guess it never really did make sense to me why.  So I don't need to worry about that, and I don't need to do an A/B side by side listening test.  What exactly SHOULD I do?  I liked both, and I'm going tomorrow to listen a little more.  I think i'm leaning a bit more toward the B&Ws right now, but I'll let you know how it goes.

I appreciate all the helpful information guys! Keep it coming...

Paradigm Monitor 11s VS. B&W 683s

Reply #6 – 2008-09-20 01:52:09

I would strongly agree with "Lyx's" comments.  There is no such thing as "loud speaker break in" or at least nothing that is or that ever would be audible.  The drivers are tested by the manufacturer and that's all they need. I would also say that my experience is that room effects dominate the loud speaker's sound more than anything else.  To reiterate, I have done (or tried my best) to do the double blind ABX testing to check these things out as much as I am able.  My (our) conclusion was that the room-speaker interaction/environment dominates every other aspect of the system.  And I mean DOMINATES. So, you need to be happy with their sound in YOUR listening room.  At the price point you're considering, most retailers in my area (Northeast US) would be willing to loan a pair or at very least allow a return if you're not satisfied.  You'd never likely get the same opportunity with anything less than $1k. So I'd suggest taking advantage (though not too much) when you are able.  Don't abuse the privilege or the equipment, be respectful and you will get genuine honest help from most places.  If or when you return one pair, explain why you are returning (as honestly as you feel) and any place should understand.  Don't fear using the floor model or a loaner as a test subject if offered.  Provided that there's is nothing grossly wrong (like torn surrounds, punctured cones, etc.) they will accurately represent.  Anyplace that won't accomodate some in home testing (at your price point) should be... avoided.  I've heard multi-thousand $ speakers with egregious mid-band suck-outs and $200 shelf speakers sound amazing.  It's very difficult to predict what a system will sound like in YOUR room. And it's far more expensive to modify a room to correct for some speaker's performance than to pick the right (or better) pair. 

The only other thing I could add is to check resale value on what you are buying to see which holds their value better for the possibility of a better investment for future upgrades.  But, that is a different criteria.  Though, I "think" that B&Ws hold their value better.  (Still like my Paradigms)

Good Luck, have fun with listening and ENJOY the music you are listening to.
-JWiels