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Topic: Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing) (Read 8338 times) previous topic - next topic
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Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Hello there,

I'm new to this forum, I thought I'd join as I want the best Audio quality perceivable (in terms of files).

I DJ in a variety of settings, from super clubs (2000 people) to small cocktail/lounge bars.

Most of my files are ripped from CD, 320kbps CBR (Lame, I've recently updated to 3.97?), other than that I buy from reputable download services (at 320kbps CBR).

I wont make any wild claims about MP3 (with the described settings) versus WAV, but I do feel there is a minor difference in sound quality (I've been doing "open eyed" tests with headphones).  I tend to hear more going on, in the high end (of the WAV).

Basically, although 320kbps CBR is perfectly good and acceptable today, will it be tomorrow? When Soundcards, Mixers, Amps, Speakers etc are upgraded and upgraded over the course of years (basically when listening conditions are optimal for the human ear).

Will people eventually be able to "tell the difference"? Would it be wiser of me to encode using a lossless format such as FLAC?

I simply want the best quality, for my own listening pleasure as well as for professional reasons.

If you do recommend using FLAC, could anybody recommend me a FREE program that uses FLAC? and also the best settings  for Audio quality (over rip speed, file size etc).

Thanks for reading and I hope to see some good feedback soon

Cheers.

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #1 –
Exact Audio Copy will rip for free.

FLAC is free too.

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #2 –
You can go flac if you wish. On the other hand 320k is overkill because you will gain little to nothing on most tracks going more than -V3 (175 k). Its all subjective of course.

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #3 –
Thanks,

Can FLAC be used with CDex?

If so, does someone have a link to what I need to download? (for the dll).

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #4 –
320kbps should be pretty safe to use in clubs etc where the details won't get much attention. Usually most people can't distinguish 320kbps mp3 from originals even with headphones on.

You could try an ABX test yourself (eventually use foobar2000 - it's free).

Besides that, I'd always prefer flac to ensure that the music I've got is the exact same as the original

Edit: Google is your friend  http://flac.sourceforge.net/
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #5 –
I haven't followed recently the different programs for DJ'ing that there are, but one thing is for sure, most are made around MP3 files. Other codecs may, or may not be available for playback with them, and may not offer the same options.

So before you start deciding on which format to use, you should really check which ones you can use.
[Edit: (Of course, ripping to a lossless codec like FLAC allows to make mp3's from them whenever they are needed) ]

Now, onto the "quality" question:

Playing with big speakers at high volume can potentially let the user hear a higher dynamic range (since the noise floor can be lower than the max peak). This tends *not* to be the case in pubs, were you have to shout to the one next to for him/her to barely understand what you say (technically, being under the noise floor).
That said, whatever artifact exists in the file, will get amplified, so it has a higher possibility to be heard.

Using 320kbps is being on the safe side. You won't get higher quality with an mp3 file, and as said before in this thread, may even be overkill. That always depends on problematic samples.
So with your setup, and if keeping in the MP3 format, I'd use LAME at CBR 320, or use the newer version (once it's out of beta) with -V0
 

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Chris2 on
Will people eventually be able to "tell the difference"? Would it be wiser of me to encode using a lossless format such as FLAC?

I simply want the best quality, for my own listening pleasure as well as for professional reasons.


I think the canonical advice in this case is to rip to lossless, and then transcode to a suitable lossy version. To discover what is a "suitable" lossy encoding, do blind testing (with, e.g., foobar2k).

I think most people would bet against any improvement in the electronic part of a system significantly increasing the quality of sound reproduction; and, alas, we can all be certain that our hearing will deteriorate in time. But ripping to lossless in the first instance would rid your mind of anxiety, and it is very quick to transcode once you've done the ripping.

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #7 –
Thanks for the helpful contributions so far.

Software:
I use a DJ program called "Virtual DJ", which basically supports all file formats (most "out of the box", some like FLAC, require the codec to be installed manually).

Audio:
Basically I can buy my music in either WAV format or MP3-320.  MP3 is more convenient because it saves me encoding it myself, and of course it's smaller in size (although this isn't my main concern).  I don't mind buying WAVs over MP3 if there is any real benefit from a DJ perspective. 

I want the best quality perceivable, no artefacts, or one day have MP3 deemed a "consumer product used to save on space, once upon a time".

Also bear in mind the manipulation that is applied when DJ'ing: Pitching, Key-locking, Applying VST Effects etc.

If 320kbps CBR/Lame (3.97) will sound as good as a WAV file going through a club system in 10-30 years, whilst being manipulated, then yes I'd go with the more convenient MP3 format, but if not, FLAC it is.

If I am to continue using MP3, when using the settings I described, should I opt for the setting: "Insane" or "Q=0"?

Again, thanks for your input so far.

EDIT: When using 320kbps CBR, does it matter if I use Stereo or Joint-Stereo in terms of quality/accuracy?

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Chris2 on
Thanks for the helpful contributions so far.

Software:
I use a DJ program called "Virtual DJ", which basically supports all file formats (most "out of the box", some like FLAC, require the codec to be installed manually).

Audio:
Basically I can buy my music in either WAV format or MP3-320.  MP3 is more convenient because it saves me encoding it myself, and of course it's smaller in size (although this isn't my main concern).  I don't mind buying WAVs over MP3 if there is any real benefit from a DJ perspective. 

I want the best quality perceivable, no artefacts, or one day have MP3 deemed a "consumer product used to save on space, once upon a time".

Also bear in mind the manipulation that is applied when DJ'ing: Pitching, Key-locking, Applying VST Effects etc.

If 320kbps CBR/Lame (3.97) will sound as good as a WAV file going through a club system in 10-30 years, whilst being manipulated, then yes I'd go with the more convenient MP3 format, but if not, FLAC it is.

If I am to continue using MP3, when using the settings I described, should I opt for the setting: "Insane" or "Q=0"?

Again, thanks for your input so far.


I also use use VDJ and buy both 320K CBR mp3 or preferably WAV when available that I encode myself to FLAC (and play them fine in VDJ, the only thing missing is that it won't read the FLAC tag). I've done a personal ABX test between 320K CBR and WAV and I failed it miserably, meaning I could not tell the difference.
However I still go for the highest quality, when available. Among other things, it has the advantage that if you're recording a mix to put online and your source is FLAC (or WAV) you get the best quality possible (for example distributing the mix as a 320K mp3 file). You skip the mp3 => mp3 transcode you'd get if your original source are mp3 files. Lossless can be better if you also want to do your own edits.

To sum it up, 320K are 99.9% totally fine for dj'ing, but lossless files are always a good idea because more future proof.

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Chris2 on
Basically, although 320kbps CBR is perfectly good and acceptable today, will it be tomorrow? When Soundcards, Mixers, Amps, Speakers etc are upgraded and upgraded over the course of years (basically when listening conditions are optimal for the human ear).

There was a post discussing philosophical issues surrounding your question.

My subjective opinion is that loudspeaker, amplifiers etc have improved very little the last 20-30 years. The main progress has been bringing better quality at a lower price, the "good" ones were good then and are still good today.

If this is a predictor of the future, it seems that no big surprises lay ahead.

The biggest evolutions in audio has been the introduction of dsp, efficient compression enabling large music collections in small places, and movie sound. I guess that this is related to the kinds of advances we may get in the years to come.

-k

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #10 –
Personally, I'd use FLAC to put my mind at ease, but 320 kb/s MP3s, properly encoded, should be indistinguishable from FLACs in the vast majority of cases.

"Properly encoded" meaning the latest version of LAME, joint stereo, no other funky settings to mess things up. Unless a better encoder comes along (doesn't seem likely to me).

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Chris2 on
Also bear in mind the manipulation that is applied when DJ'ing: Pitching, Key-locking, Applying VST Effects etc.


Quote from: bubbleguuum on
However I still go for the highest quality, when available. Among other things, it has the advantage that if you're recording a mix to put online and your source is FLAC (or WAV) you get the best quality possible (for example distributing the mix as a 320K mp3 file). You skip the mp3 => mp3 transcode you'd get if your original source are mp3 files. Lossless can be better if you also want to do your own edits.


Those are the only reasons why reasonable mp3s (especially 320kbps mp3s) might be inferior to lossless originals. Might be - as in one person somewhere in the club might be able to hear the difference if you played the two back to back.

I think people get far too hung up about this though. Some of the tracks you play will includes samples (or entire mixes!) sourced from mp3, minidisc, digital radio (mp2), analogue radio (FM fed via NICAM) etc, sometimes transcoded multiple times. As for what people are now used to hearing on the radio...!


If you have no reason to use mp3, then use lossless - why not? But remember that either will do just fine - and mp3s are far more portable (though you can always create them from lossless files).

Cheers,
David.

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #12 –
When I ran 'Chill Out' by the KLF through a very large club system a few years ago you could definitely differentiate between the CD and mp3 versions.

Encoders are a lot better now, but the biggest problem is the source. I hear too many DJs using something like Virtual DJ, who don't replaygain their tracks and obviously source most of them off the internet, giving a mix of transcodes/shitty encodes.

If you're ripping your own stuff, with LAME and applying replaygain, then I don't see many problems. Myself, i'd rather rip to single file FLAC and be done with it.

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #13 –
Quote from: seanyseansean on
Encoders are a lot better now, but the biggest problem is the source. I hear too many DJs using something like Virtual DJ, who don't replaygain their tracks and obviously source most of them off the internet, giving a mix of transcodes/shitty encodes.


A DJ is supposed to manually fine "replaygain" what he's playing using the gain knobs of the external mixer.

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #14 –
Quote from: bubbleguuum on
Quote from: seanyseansean on

Encoders are a lot better now, but the biggest problem is the source. I hear too many DJs using something like Virtual DJ, who don't replaygain their tracks and obviously source most of them off the internet, giving a mix of transcodes/shitty encodes.


A DJ is supposed to manually fine "replaygain" what he's playing using the gain knobs of the external mixer.


I know that, it just makes it easier when the tracks volume aren't as wildly different as they need to be.

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #15 –
I doubt anyone in any club will say 'yeah thats a crappy mp3 !' .. because the artifact is usually pre echo or ringing that has to be very vicious for average joe to notice. @ V4 ~ 160 k even if there was a difference it will likely be a small one for a split second. Even if there was smearing on the doof doof it will too be small. Its rare to encounter a catastrophic artifact these days @ 128k (it wasn't rare 8 years ago) .. let alone any noticeable artifacts with 160..192k

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #16 –
Quote from: seanyseansean on
Quote from: bubbleguuum on

Quote from: seanyseansean on

Encoders are a lot better now, but the biggest problem is the source. I hear too many DJs using something like Virtual DJ, who don't replaygain their tracks and obviously source most of them off the internet, giving a mix of transcodes/shitty encodes.


A DJ is supposed to manually fine "replaygain" what he's playing using the gain knobs of the external mixer.


I know that, it just makes it easier when the tracks volume aren't as wildly different as they need to be.

now that you are on that topic.... what settings do you use?
i use 89db but it "feels" to soft

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #17 –
Again thanks for the answers..

I've decided to use FLAC for CD ripping, and also for WAV downloads, I'll keep my current 320-CBR lame files (and will buy them still when WAV is not available).

I've downloaded the FREE "BonkENC V1.0.5", is this a good program for FLAC? (in terms of the quality it rips at).  Under the FLAC encoder settings, it has presets from 0-8, are these the standard presets that FLAC uses? It has "8" down as best, so if I select "8", will I get optimal results?

I'm not being simple here, I just want to be sure.

Again thanks.

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #18 –
Audio fidelity in a bar simply isn't worth the discussion.  It's noisy with loud people howling, people stomping around, everything echoing, and a zillion other noises.  Typically, all people hear is *thump thump thump* anyways.  That won't change over time as the human ear doesn't evolve that fast.  If you want the best possible music format for storing audio in regardless, then lossless really is your only choice as it's a 100% representation of the quality all the time.  A link to FLAC's homepage has already been given; I'll add:

Rarewares as a place to find all sorts of encoding/decoding tools that are free.

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #19 –
You should use something like EAC or dbPowerAmp for ripping the CDs....these will then encode the audio into FLAC....there's some guides for EAC/FLAC in the wiki here I believe.

As for encoding with FLAC there's no difference in quality as it's all lossless, it's just the filesize. I use -8 just because it still takes very little time to compress on even a lowly E6300 Core2Duo

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #20 –
The only downside to using FLAC > it's not supported by DJ CD players, I always take CD's with me as a back-up solution in case an element of my ste-up fails.  Is there a burning program that can revert FLAC back to WAV?

If not it should be considered.

Future Proof Audio Quality (Club DJ'ing)

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Chris2 on
The only downside to using FLAC > it's not supported by DJ CD players, I always take CD's with me as a back-up solution in case an element of my ste-up fails.  Is there a burning program that can revert FLAC back to WAV?

If not it should be considered.

Pretty much all programs that do wav->flac can also do flac->wav, even flac frontend that comes with installing flac.

If you're talking about burning the WAV files as an audio cd burrrn will burn flac files as an audio cd