Skip to main content ↑ ↓

Notice

Please note that most of the software linked on this forum is likely to be safe to use. If you are unsure, feel free to ask in the relevant topics, or send a private message to an administrator or moderator. To help curb the problems of false positives, or in the event that you do find actual malware, you can contribute through the article linked here.
Topic: Green Day - 'American Idiot' (Read 26276 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Green Day performed 3 numbers from the new album on 'Later' in the UK a couple of night s ago, and boy did they nail it.

I really want to get the CD, but I wondered - can anyone here can tell me if it's escaped being 'clipressed ' to death? I dread finding that it's unlistenable.

ciao,
R.

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #1 –
I received my copy one day after it was released;). It sounds great to me, but I am a Green Day fan;) It replaygains to -10 db or so. I don't have the tools to measure for clipping, but it sounds fine to me. I do have 46 year old ears, so maybe I am not noticing something
you will make mp3's for compatibility reasons.

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #2 –
Quote
I received my copy one day after it was released;). It sounds great to me, but I am a Green Day fan;) It replaygains to -10 db or so. I don't have the tools to measure for clipping, but it sounds fine to me. I do have 46 year old ears, so maybe I am not noticing something
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=248331"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'm a 44-year-old whippersnapper, so I guess I sould be wary then . Actually, people our age are probably more likely to be aware of the 'clipression' problem (IMO) because we were around listening before this crap started.

-10 dB isn't *too* bad for a rock album I guess - tho' I gather that Green Day do actually play (gasp) quiet/slow parts on the album.

IMO, too much compression and/or limiting robs music of dynamics and much of it's drama, and one effect is you just get bored with an album quicker.

I found this with, for example,  'Songs For The Deaf' after a couple of weeks, and it so was frustrating that I tried to get the double-LP version (American Idiot is available on LP at the moment), but it was unobtainable by then, unfortunately.

ALthough it's obviously a crap-shoot re. the quality of pressing, usually vinyl isn't affected as much the by (damn it to hell) 'loudness war' as CD, for obvious reasons,

ciao,
R

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #3 –
If the songs have quiet parts (say, 40 sec at the beginning and 30 in the mid): -10 dB is then very bad. Most likely the CD has severe clipression artifacts.
I had some CDs with -9 or -10 in the past, without quiet parts, and they still sounded *OK*.
CDs from Celine Dion I know have mostly around -7 (looks nice ?). One may call me a **Celine Dion fan**, but no CD from her that doesn't sound horrible on the loud parts.
I know that I know nothing. But how can I then know that ?

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #4 –
Yeah, -10dB is fairly high.  Some of my Metal/Prog Metal albums aren't even that high.

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #5 –
hehe... -10dB means it is clipped and compressed without a doubt.

just try using a wave editor like Audition and getting -10 without clipping.  clipping actually saves some of the dynamics at this level (it's the lesser of 2 evils sometimes, esp. with noisy music).  if you are able to get -10 with just (multiband) compression and a peak-limit, you'll probably have made the song pump so badly that you'd prefer clipping.

i noticed the FLCL soundtrack(s) come in at around -7dB for some songs, but they actually sound more squashed and pumpy by far than electric 6 at -11dB.  as far as i'm aware it isn't for artistic impact, either.

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #6 –
right - in the interests of science I downloaded a 192Kbs version of the album, which claims to be from a US advance copy. I in no way condone 'piracy', but as far as I'm concerned the industry has *left me no other option*. If they insist on degrading CD quality, then it's 'try before you buy' where ever possible.

The album is gapless and sounds pretty clear, so quite possibly LAME.

Album gain is -10.49dB, the individual tracks are;

10.79
10.52
10.26
10.12
9.23
10.74
10.01
10.69
10.84
10.64
9.76
10.80
9.79

Not too good but could be worse, I'm going to buy the CD anyway.

ciao,
R.

Edit - "advanced copy"? might have sounded a bit weird - lose the 'd' of course.
 

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #7 –
Quote
hehe... -10dB means it is clipped and compressed without a doubt.

just try using a wave editor like Audition and getting -10 without clipping.  clipping actually saves some of the dynamics at this level (it's the lesser of 2 evils sometimes, esp. with noisy music).  if you are able to get -10 with just (multiband) compression and a peak-limit, you'll probably have made the song pump so badly that you'd prefer clipping.

i noticed the FLCL soundtrack(s) come in at around -7dB for some songs, but they actually sound more squashed and pumpy by far than electric 6 at -11dB.  as far as i'm aware it isn't for artistic impact, either.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=248482"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


As you say, it's not a straightforward issue of 'loudness' - some (presumably skillful) mastering engineers are obviously trying to make the best of a bad thing in their use of multi-band compression and limiting to 'achieve' these stupid levels.

R.

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #8 –
I downloaded one half of Nick Caves latest 'abattoir blues'. Sound quality is pretty bad.

RG values:

-11.47
-10.74
-12.82
-8.95
-11.64
-10.06
-9.25
-9.82
-10.46

Album gain: -11.41


Thanks but no thanks.

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #9 –
-12.82 = OUCH!!!

That is completely unacceptable.

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #10 –
hoo boy. What an album.

Decision made - I'm gonna get the double LP.

R.

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #11 –
It's more or less a physical impossibility to get remotely natural sound once you venture into the double digits.  Although some albums can go extremely high (well into the -9dB range) if they're very dominant in the upper midrange to treble frequencies like most late '80s-early '90s albums.  However, since this is a very recent CD I doubt that's the case since most CDs these days are EXTREMELY bass-heavy, which means just about anything over -8.5dB is going to be a sonic nosedive.  Averaging -10.5 dB for an album with "modern" equalization is more or less a flashing "DO NOT PURCHASE" sign.

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #12 –
The new Green Day CD sounds decent to my ears. Could have been better, but it could have been A LOT worse.

Sad that it comes to that when we talk about quality of our music..."could have been A LOT worse."
iTunes 10 - Mac OS X 10.6
256kbps AAC VBR
iPhone 4 32GB

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #13 –
I don't have it in front of me, but I thought this album sounded horrible when I borrowed it from a friend.  Opened it up in SoundForge.  It is hard limited at -0.3 IIRC.  It looked like a straight line across where it was limited.  The snare drum absolutely pushes everything out of the mix when it hits and the bass drum sounds like a cardboard box from having 0 dynamics.
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #14 –
For me, the loudness race is a evil thing: I tested many CD's, the conclusion:

Modern CD's with (96dB SPL--> 99dB SPL) is a pain for my ears     

Old CD's with (89dB SPL --> 93dB SPL) is a good choice   

I believe that the "MODERN" audio recording engineers are IDIOTS !!!! 

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #15 –
Quote
I believe that the "MODERN" audio recording engineers are IDIOTS !!!! 
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=259775"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


But you have to understand, it's not their fault, it's the record companies giving them work that demand the loud volumes. I was talking with a mastering engineer at a certain *ahem* very well known top recording/mastering studio, and he said that once, he did a master for a record company, who threw it back at him saying it was too quiet, when he'd already maximized it a great deal. He had no choice but to absolutely slam it to the wall. It's just the sick way the record industry works these days, it's not the engineers' faults.

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #16 –
 .....
The name song is "Take it on the run", the band is REO SPEEDWAGON, this is one example of typical recording of the 80's.

On the other hand  :


The sound is complete horrible, unnatural... [98.23 dB SPL (-9.23 replay gain)]
The name song is: "FOO FOO", The CD is Shaman; Band: Santana.

What happen in the "BRAIN" of these audio recording "AMATEURS"? 

PD: sorry my bad english...

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #17 –
Quote
What happen in the "BRAIN" of these audio recording "AMATEURS"?  
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=259781"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Maybe I should post that again...

But you have to understand, it's NOT THE ENGINEERS' FAULTS! It's the record companies giving them work that demand the loud volumes. I was talking with a mastering engineer at a certain high profile recording/mastering studio, and he said that once, he did a master for a record company, who threw it back at him saying it was too quiet, when he'd already maximized it a great deal. He had no choice but to absolutely slam it to the wall.

It's just the sick way the record industry works these days, it's not the engineers' faults.

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #18 –
Quote
-12.82 = OUCH!!!

That is completely unacceptable.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=248591"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

if you think that's bad you should try listening to the latest avril lavigne CD. one track is -14. levels on this scale really make it difficult to enjoy the music, regardless of how much you like the band.
Be healthy, be kind, grow rich and prosper

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #19 –
Has there ever an HA ABX test for clipping?  Is there a good way to do one with the music out there?  I know this is a little different than lossy compression, but it seems like lots of folks are claiming they hear "artifacts" (distortion, clipping, etc.) but couldn’t this also be placebo?  I am in no way saying current mastering is good, but still, they increase the volume to make their songs louder, but they do stop at a point.  They would probably argue that that point is calculated so that a human could not tell the difference.
"Monkey see, monkey do, yeah."  David J. Matthews

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #20 –
Quote
Has there ever an HA ABX test for clipping?  Is there a good way to do one with the music out there?  I know this is a little different than lossy compression, but it seems like lots of folks are claiming they hear "artifacts" (distortion, clipping, etc.) but couldn’t this also be placebo?  I am in no way saying current mastering is good, but still, they increase the volume to make their songs louder, but they do stop at a point.  They would probably argue that that point is calculated so that a human could not tell the difference.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=259786"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Listen to Parallel Universe by the Red Hot Chili Peppers. No, it appears that they don't stop at a point.

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #21 –
What bugs me is when they use a fairly slow compressor to even out the levels, especially when it's a fairly dynamic band. I've heard albums at -6 or so where the pumping of the compressor just made it awful to listen to.

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #22 –
Quote
What bugs me is when they use a fairly slow compressor to even out the levels, especially when it's a fairly dynamic band. I've heard albums at -6 or so where the pumping of the compressor just made it awful to listen to.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=259789"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I know exactly the effect you're talking about, but I can't think of any albums that do it (fairly tired )

Can you give me an example?

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #23 –
Quote
Listen to Parallel Universe by the Red Hot Chili Peppers. No, it appears that they don't stop at a point.


Well yes they do stop somewhere.  They could always have increased the clipping even more.  I'm not saying no one can ever hear any clipping.  I'm just asking if anyone here has done ABX testing on this matter.  Whenever anyone makes comments about hearing artifacts due to lossy compression here, s%&t hits the fan if they don't back it up with ABX data.  I don't see why this should be any different.

Ok, so I do realize how it is different and that its not possible to ABX most if not all because there is no access to the original source.  But would it be possible to set up some sort of a test with some sounds that are not clipped and ABX them with ones that have been "gained" so that they do.  This maybe could get a feel for how much clipping, if any, is acceptable?
"Monkey see, monkey do, yeah."  David J. Matthews

Green Day - 'American Idiot'

Reply #24 –
Quote
Has there ever an HA ABX test for clipping?  Is there a good way to do one with the music out there?  I know this is a little different than lossy compression, but it seems like lots of folks are claiming they hear "artifacts" (distortion, clipping, etc.) but couldn’t this also be placebo?  I am in no way saying current mastering is good, but still, they increase the volume to make their songs louder, but they do stop at a point.  They would probably argue that that point is calculated so that a human could not tell the difference.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


In [a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=35&t=22291]this[/url] thread is the definitive proof that modern recordings are heaviliy clipped and that it could be better. The sample is not suitable for ABX because the difference is so obvious.
I'll be pleased to find an old-mastered/not-clipped versus new-mastered/clipped example if that is additionally requested.
I know that I know nothing. But how can I then know that ?