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Topic: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2  (Read 2297 times) previous topic - next topic
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Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Hello,

in my opinion there is an issue (or significant change from v1.6.x) in current Foobar V2 that cause the SACD decoder Ver 1.5.4 to make a full volume BUMP on the first played track (only on the first of the playlist).

This is especially notable every time I have mixed playlist or I start playing a SACD, at the first track begin a full volume BUMP is played.

This problem/bug is 100% reproducible (at least on my audio system) on any FB V2, 32bit version (preview included) using SACD codec V 1.5.4.

I contacted the SACD developer and they said it is because of the DAC transition from PCM to DSD... but my DAC has only PCM capacity... and anyway this problem was not present with Foobar 1.6.x... (I said this to them as well).

Anyone else experienced the same problem?
Anyone may have suggestions for me to mitigate or resolve this issue?

Kind regards,
Andrea
________________________________________

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #1 –
Yes, mine makes a loud volume spike at the beginning of the first DSD track I play. It's inconsistent how loud it will be. My DAC also doesn't support DSD. I convert to PCM for playback. It did this with old versions of foobar and the component and the newest versions though.
Think millionaire, but with cannons.

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #2 –
I can convert to PCM for playback without any problem.

foo_input_sacd-1.5.4
readme.txt
> 4. If your DAC doesn't support DSD source samplerate use DSP Processor plugin.
Preferences > Tools > SACD > Converter > DSD Processor > DSD Processor
Preferences > Tools > DSD Processor > Use DSD Processor

DSP Processor plugin: Not required for my DAC (doesn't support)

foobar2000 v1.6.16 / foobar2000 v2.1 preview 2023-07-27 64bit
DAC: FiiO USB DAC E07K 96/24 (doesn't support DSD)
Preferences > Tools > SACD >
Type: PCM
Samplerate: 96000

SHURE SRH1840, SENNHEISER HD660S2, SENNHEISER HD620S, SENNHEISER HD 490 Pro Plus, beyerdynamic DT 1990 PRO, HiFiMAN Edition XS, HIFIMAN ANANDA, Bowers & Wilkins P7, FiiO FT5, FiiO FT1 Pro, 水月雨 (MOONDROP) 空鳴 - VOID, SONY WH1000XM5 (made a Upgrade/Balanced Cable by myself)

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #3 –
Hello @Airken ,
thanks for your follow-up, but I cannot understand if we are speaking about the same problem.

I mean, in my and of @Cannonaire , we can play any SACD through our PCM DACs, but we have a single very loud (100% volume) spike / bump at the beginning of the first track. Then (in my case) all plays well and I don't have any more spike/bump when playing the following (2nd on) SACD tracks.

In my setup, I have a default resampling to 96kHz all the times enabled because I set my DAC to 96kHz steady, then I configured the SACD plugin to not use DSD Processor but to simply convert to PCM at 96kHz (OK, in this case the resampler does nothing, but it is there for all the other rates).
Do you think / confirm that in your opinion this is the problem?
Shall have I to add DSD Processer anyway ?

Thanks and regards,
Andrea

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #4 –
> Shall have I to add DSD Processer anyway ?

The readme states, buti don't think it's necessary.
I think it's a highly dependent component.
I think it's a compatibility issue with the DAC.

In the case of such a problem, I think that the DAC name (environment) should be described.
SHURE SRH1840, SENNHEISER HD660S2, SENNHEISER HD620S, SENNHEISER HD 490 Pro Plus, beyerdynamic DT 1990 PRO, HiFiMAN Edition XS, HIFIMAN ANANDA, Bowers & Wilkins P7, FiiO FT5, FiiO FT1 Pro, 水月雨 (MOONDROP) 空鳴 - VOID, SONY WH1000XM5 (made a Upgrade/Balanced Cable by myself)

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #5 –
My DAC is a Schiit Modius (older version, with the USB Micro B and not USB C), but it doesn't matter because I'm converting the DSD to PCM for playback. The DAC literally doesn't support DSD, which means since I am getting music with a loud spike at the beginning of the first track, there is either a setup error (good chance) or a bug in the component affecting some users. I got the same bug using old and new versions of the SACD component. I have tried with and without DSD processor (I'm honestly not sure what that does), several different sample rates, and several of the DSD2PCM modes. Same thing happens on a fresh install VS my daily use install. Attached is a screenshot of my settings.
Think millionaire, but with cannons.

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #6 –
I also have multiple DACs that don't support DSD.

Some tracks have noise at the beginning.
No special settings are required for those that do not contain noise.
I know this is a compatibility issue, as I've said before.
It may be a bug after all, but for now it's a compatibility issue.
I give up because no matter what I do, it's useless.
SHURE SRH1840, SENNHEISER HD660S2, SENNHEISER HD620S, SENNHEISER HD 490 Pro Plus, beyerdynamic DT 1990 PRO, HiFiMAN Edition XS, HIFIMAN ANANDA, Bowers & Wilkins P7, FiiO FT5, FiiO FT1 Pro, 水月雨 (MOONDROP) 空鳴 - VOID, SONY WH1000XM5 (made a Upgrade/Balanced Cable by myself)

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Air KEN on
I also have multiple DACs that don't support DSD.

Some tracks have noise at the beginning.
No special settings are required for those that do not contain noise.
I know this is a compatibility issue, as I've said before.
It may be a bug after all, but for now it's a compatibility issue.
I give up because no matter what I do, it's useless.
It's not the tracks though. If I start playback from full stop on a DSD track, there will be a spike. If I go from one DSD track and playback continues into that first one I tested before, there is no spike, meaning it's not a problem with the file. It does this on whichever device I use, and I have to use DSD2PCM for all devices because none of mine support native DSD. They all play DSD because it's converted on playback, but with a spike when first starting. I don't really know how I can be more clear than this. It really sounds like a bug. Unless you can see something off with my settings?
Think millionaire, but with cannons.

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #8 –
As I said many times, there are no specific settings.
-Preferences > Tools > SACD > Type > PCM
It's just about what you can do and what you can't do.

The same is true for DSD playback on DSD-capable DACs.
Not all DSD compatible DACs can play DSD.

It is such a component.
SHURE SRH1840, SENNHEISER HD660S2, SENNHEISER HD620S, SENNHEISER HD 490 Pro Plus, beyerdynamic DT 1990 PRO, HiFiMAN Edition XS, HIFIMAN ANANDA, Bowers & Wilkins P7, FiiO FT5, FiiO FT1 Pro, 水月雨 (MOONDROP) 空鳴 - VOID, SONY WH1000XM5 (made a Upgrade/Balanced Cable by myself)

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #9 –
We're talking in circles. I understand that you set those as you want, but I was trying to rule out user error because I really don't know what these options do. Thank you.
Quote from: Air KEN on
It is such a component.
I don't know what you mean by this. Would you be able to clarify, please?

I'm just trying to figure out why there is a spike only when initializing playback, but no spike when playing through from another track into that first track. I don't know what you mean by compatible, either. All my DAC sees is PCM. The software changes it to PCM first, or I wouldn't hear music at all. This clearly means something is going wrong in the software to cause the spike, and it has nothing to do with my DAC.
Think millionaire, but with cannons.

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #10 –
AT-HA40USB (audio-technica)
FOSTEX HP-A3
PRODIGY CUBE USB Auedio
Preferences > Tools > SACD > Type > PCM >384000Hz (Resampler SSRC X)
Beautifully played from the beginning

SHURE SRH1840, SENNHEISER HD660S2, SENNHEISER HD620S, SENNHEISER HD 490 Pro Plus, beyerdynamic DT 1990 PRO, HiFiMAN Edition XS, HIFIMAN ANANDA, Bowers & Wilkins P7, FiiO FT5, FiiO FT1 Pro, 水月雨 (MOONDROP) 空鳴 - VOID, SONY WH1000XM5 (made a Upgrade/Balanced Cable by myself)

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #11 –
I mean, great! I'm glad it's working for you, but we are experiencing a bug. Will you please acknowledge what I have said:

I start on track B, and at the beginning there is a volume spike. It is different each time, and not part of the file.
I start on track A, and just as with track B, at the beginning there is a volume spike.

Lastly
I start again on track A, and there is a volume spike as before - but then I just let it play through, and when it ends, track B starts playing automatically in order, but this time there is no spike at the beginning of track B.

This means the software is inconsistent, and there is a bug. I'm just trying to be as clear as possible, but you aren't acknowledging anything I have said.
Think millionaire, but with cannons.

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #12 –
> Will you please acknowledge what I have said:

Of course I understand.
It is a statement after understanding
This bug has been reported for years.
The first thing you should do is report bugs.

Super Audio CD Decoder Files
https://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/files/

However, when many people report bugs, they are just ignored.
So, I can only check if the bug occurs in my DAC or not.
SHURE SRH1840, SENNHEISER HD660S2, SENNHEISER HD620S, SENNHEISER HD 490 Pro Plus, beyerdynamic DT 1990 PRO, HiFiMAN Edition XS, HIFIMAN ANANDA, Bowers & Wilkins P7, FiiO FT5, FiiO FT1 Pro, 水月雨 (MOONDROP) 空鳴 - VOID, SONY WH1000XM5 (made a Upgrade/Balanced Cable by myself)

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #13 –
Okay, I see the bug reported. But it's only the report from the person who started this thread, and nothing else related I could see. The developer says it has to do with the DAC switching between PCM and DSD, but at no point does my DAC ever change between those. My DAC does not support DSD, which is why I am using this plugin in the first place - to convert said DSD to PCM so my DAC can play it. From beginning to end it's all PCM. The software converts the DSD into PCM, making the DAC irrelevant.

I do know that sometimes when changing sample rate there can be a bump/spike like that even going from one PCM track to another, but I already accounted for that. Everything was PCM, and everything was resampled to the same sample rate. My DAC never changed modes. It's even set to the same thing in Windows because I only use the DAC for music.

Do you have any insight as to what may be causing this, knowing that it is not the DAC or a compatibility issue, and the noise is not part of the DSD tracks I am trying to play?

**EDIT**
I have added my own commentary to the bug report. Thanks for the link.
Think millionaire, but with cannons.

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #14 –
I agree with what you are saying.

However, there are DACs that can actually play and DACs that don't. This is the same for DSD playback.

> I have added my own commentary to the bug report. Thanks for the link.
As expected, it has the ability to execute.
SHURE SRH1840, SENNHEISER HD660S2, SENNHEISER HD620S, SENNHEISER HD 490 Pro Plus, beyerdynamic DT 1990 PRO, HiFiMAN Edition XS, HIFIMAN ANANDA, Bowers & Wilkins P7, FiiO FT5, FiiO FT1 Pro, 水月雨 (MOONDROP) 空鳴 - VOID, SONY WH1000XM5 (made a Upgrade/Balanced Cable by myself)

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #15 –
@ Cannonaire, I wonder what happens if you try something like Pregap DSP ?

Another thing I'd be curious about is to try with Fading on/off (opposite of your default) in Preferences > Playback > Output - since I recall Peter asking folks about that on playback issues.

(This is just complete guess on my part)

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #16 –
Quote from: anamorphic on
@ Cannonaire, I wonder what happens if you try something like Pregap DSP ?

Another thing I'd be curious about is to try with Fading on/off (opposite of your default) in Preferences > Playback > Output - since I recall Peter asking folks about that on playback issues.

(This is just complete guess on my part)
I do use Pregap DSP, and I tried with fade on and off. Those were my go-tos as well. :(
Thanks for the suggestions.
Think millionaire, but with cannons.

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #17 –
Dear All and dear @Cannonaire, @anamorphic and @Airken ,
regardless of all the considerations expressed, I would like to drive your attention to these two key points:
1) I used Foobar V 1.6.x with older SACD codecs on exactly the same HW and I never had this spike/bump problem.
2) This problem rose "concurrently" along the release of Foobar V2.x and SACD codec V 1.5.x.
This I already wrote also to the developer (not having any comment/reply so far).

The developer also said that the initial spike is due to the FIR initialization... I then suggested to add some silence at the very first component initialization / callback.

So, concluding, for me this is bug of this component or a bug rising from the interaction of FB V2.x with this component.
Unfortunately I cannot anymore revert back to FB 1.6.x to check it by myself. Anyone can do this check?

Kind regards, Andrea

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #18 –
@AndreaT The bug has been there for me since maybe 2019 or so. I just never bothered reporting it because I don't have many DSD tracks and I figured it was user-error. I only posted here because I saw others with the same problem, and Itested it with a fresh install and had the same issue. This has been there since at least 1.6.

What is FIR initialization?

I use pregap already and it doesn't remove the spike— it only delays the song starting, and the spike plays at the beginning of the song anyway. And the spike sounds different each playback, sometimes in only one ear or the other, and sometimes lower or higher volume.
Think millionaire, but with cannons.

Re: Full volume "BUMP" on first SACD track with Foobar V2

Reply #19 –
Hi @Cannonaire ,
interesting to know you were experiencing this issue since long. This is changing a bit my understanding of the problem, because, as I said, I never had it before Foobar V2.x.

Regarding your question, the FIR is a kind of digital filter used to band-limit the reconstructed audio from the SACD bitstream (FIR = Finite Impulse Response filter). Usually this filter is a low-pass having cut-off frequency around 30kHz.

I don't know the implementation in the SACD codec, but it looks there are no user related settings we can adjust with regards to its initialization.

Stated this, I also confirm that I have the spike at the very beginning (but only) of the first SACD track I play. Then, from the second track onwards I don't have anymore spikes. So, in my case, it really could be the problem of the FIR initialization... but, if so, it is just a matter of "fixing" the FIR implementation... It should be easy.

Kind regards, Andrea