Custom foobar theme/config on Android

2019-12-25 19:43:06

Hi everybody,

I have a complex custom DUI theme/config on Windows (lots of components, titleformat scripts, etc.), and I wonder if there's any way that I could port it or replicate it exactly on Android.

I know there is a foobar2000 Android version, but AFAIK it's a different beast, tailored for mobile use, with much less customization options than the Windows one.

I'm asking this because I'm not expecting it to run on a small Android phone or tablet. Rather on a HUGE Android Touch Table (40" or so) used as a media control center. If my DUI theme/config absolutely requires Windows, then I'll be forced to buy a mini-PC only for that purpose.

Any ideas ? Thanks in advance.

Re: Custom foobar theme/config on Android

Reply #1 – 2019-12-25 23:29:44

The android version is extremely basic compared to regular foobar so pretty much certain you won't be able to replicate your custom setup.

There's some rudimentary theming support, but only with a few preset tags (artist, album, etc) and not much else:
http://forum.foobar2000.com/forum/showthread.php?114-Skinning/
http://forum.foobar2000.com/forum/showthread.php?114-Skinning&p=720&viewfull=1#post720

If you are building a media center, why bother with android? A tiny PC would probably serve you much better, be that Linux-based or Windows. You probably already have an android device in your pocket (your phone).

Re: Custom foobar theme/config on Android

Reply #2 – 2019-12-26 12:29:37

Thanks Daeron, that's pretty clear Yes, it's about a whole media center thing.

The reason I'll have Android anyway (even if I have Windows too) is double :
- Touch Gaming : the 40" screen will be a touch one, which will allow for multiplayer interaction (basic touch gaming, no complicated stuff). Android is more suitable than Windows for that purpose.
- Movies : even if Windows can do that perfectly, enhancing the image takes some complex filters (Sharpen, SVP, etc.) that require a pretty powerful CPU/GPU (especially with 1080p/2160p x265). On Android, I've seen some pretty good reviews of the latest NVidia TV Shield (basic or Pro) with its AI scaling algorithms. Much less hassle for a reasonable price, so I thought I'd give it a try.

Bottom line : If I need Windows too for foobar purposes only, I guess I'll buy a basic mini-PC such as this one, and I'll switch between Windows and Android depending on the intended use. Any thoughts ?

Re: Custom foobar theme/config on Android

Reply #3 – 2019-12-26 19:10:14

It seems to me that you haven't really settled on anything yet, so I'll just throw around some questions with the intention of helping you make a better decision, not to nitpick your current choices.

Do you actually want a touchscreen? Do you have a list of games lined up that specifically require touchscreen that you really want to play? Would it not be better and more comfortable to just use a wireless controller or keyboard? Will you be passing along/holding a 40" tablet hand to hand or will it be mounted somewhere permanently? If you buy a Shield TV, how will you get a touchscreen?

I'm not sure I see a sharpening filter and some fancy upscaling as a major selling point. Today even streaming is pretty decent quality and if it is not, the filters won't make it suddenly look great. The ARM CPU(/GPU) you will find in the Shield TV or any android tablet is actually on the weaker side. Even an entry level x86 CPU can do that and more for still fairly cheap.

What is your budget? How long do you expect the device to satisfy your needs? Do you care about how much space the device takes up? The smaller it gets, you are paying a lot more for much weaker performance and for the inability to expand/upgrade it. Are you willing to take your time to set everything up, or you specifically want some plug and play device that requires basically no setup?

The way I see it your either put together a proper x86 media PC that can do a lot more in the long run than just play video (running foobar is one), at the cost of being a bit bigger and requiring some setup (choosing the right OS, setting up couch play) or you buy some plug and play device like the Shield TV, which will become obsolete sooner, but is smaller and more straightforward to set up right now.

I'd probably avoid the Atom-based Windows Mini PCs (especially tablets). Unless they improved significantly last time I checked, they were, at best, functional but infuriating (weak CPU, low amount of RAM to run Windows). You'd be much better off buying some used business PC (around Intel Haswell generation and above). Or the new Ryzen APUs are cheap and really good as well if you want something brand new.

Re: Custom foobar theme/config on Android

Reply #4 – 2019-12-27 13:30:29

Thanks Daeron ! You can be sure that I appreciate your intent and your insights. I'll try to answer you. This will probably be off-topic, but you asked for it.

Since a (moving) picture is worth a thousand words, here is prett much what I'm trying to achieve : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2RwzFAcKrU

I am currently designing the wood/metal structure that will hold everything. It's inspired by this. Not exactly, but you get the idea.

To answer some of your questions :
- Yes, it will definitely be a touch screen (it's the whole purpose of it)
- Yes, there will be some touch gaming involved
- I'll also use it as a giant comic reader, turning the pages with the finger

That is for the Android part of course. I'll need to add a Windows part with foobar to use it as an audio player. I would use foobar in tactile mode with Windows OSD keyboard (no external keyboard/mouse). I won't consider any other operating systems (e.g. Linux), since I'm not proficient enough with them. I have a decent experience with Windows so I'll stick with it, and Android for the rest.

So basically it will be a 40" touch screen, mounted on a solid wood/metal structure that will allow it to tilt from horizontal to vertical. Around that touch screen there will be :
- An Android box (Nvidia or something else - NVidia has good reviews and it's not too expensive)
- A Windows PC

The space it takes isn't really an issue. It can be really big. What I'd like to do though is to integrate the Android and Windows boxes INTO the structure itself. I don't necessarily need a mini-PC, but some of them are really powerful if required (i5 / i7...). However, I'd like both boxes to be fanless or at least extremely silent, for obvious reasons.

Budget isn't really an issue, within reasonable limits. Let's say that today we can buy a Touch Table for 6.000-8000 $/€. I intend to build one myself for much less, and with more functionality.

I'm willing to take as much time as needed, within the limits of my own ability. I can take care of all the mechanical part, I can also build up a PC rig if needed... but honestly, if I find a decent fanless x86 PC of a reasonable size for a honest price, I won't bother. Especially if it's only to run foobar and maybe MPC-HC / MPV / etc.

I prefer to spend less on the PC itself, and more on the external USB audio card. But of course the PC needs to be powerful enough so foobar doesn't lag all the time accessing my music library (that's stored remotely in a network PC). Also, I will use my own custom foobar theme that suits my needs perfectly. If you have a suggestion CPU-wise & RAM-wise to run smoothly a complex foobar theme (1440p size) on a 50k audio library, please feel free to tell ! I agree that a x86 CPU will be better, with enough RAM and a real SSD instead of eMMc. A Ryzen APU would be great, but I have to keep things fanless if possible. Do you think I could find it in a mini-PC ?

Yes, the whole thing (the Touch Table) is meant to last for many years without any major upgrades.

Those are the basic choices and I'm pretty sure about them. Feel free if you have more questions.

Re: Custom foobar theme/config on Android

Reply #5 – 2019-12-27 17:48:49

To be quite honest gaming or doing anything with a literal table sounds really uncomfortable after 30 seconds of "oh, that's cool". But I'm not the target audience here.

If you already settled on the apps (touch gaming, comic book reading) and those only exist (in an acceptable form) on Android, then your options are pretty limited in using anything else. I assume you are aware of Steam big picture mode, Kodi and other solutions to turn your windows PC into a more couch oriented gaming/media playback device. Not sure on the touchscreen support part, I'm personally perfectly good without it altogether, but clearly you would like that part very much.

You mention a networked PC, is this more like a NAS or an actual PC that's used for other things? If all it does is serve up your library for other devices, you might as well install VNC/RDP on it, keep your current foobar layout and access it (the screen) remotely. With the upnp plugin you can designate other devices (such as your coffee table) to be your playback device.

Note that remote access will be inherently 'laggier' depending on your home network speeds and whether that thing will be wired or wireless. If you go the double device route (mini PC + android), there will be the problem of routing audio (and video) from both of them to your speakers (and screen) as well.

I don't think a decent fan would make much noise in a good case and the APU could be undervolted/the fan speeds capped if really necessary. There are now some giant, passive heatsinks on offer as well which might work. although would be pretty low on my list. Current CPUs generate much less heat than they did 5-7 years ago.

You could buy from the upper tier of mini PCs (the ones shipping with actual desktop CPUs instead of those meant for tablets, such as Intel Atom series), but if you have the room, I'd rather build a small form factor PC that will remain upgradeable in the future and has less ridiculous prices on the same hardware. For example, Intel NUC type stuff often solder the CPU to the motherboard. If you want to upgrade in the future, you basically have to rebuy everything. Without a fan they can run into throttling and overheating issues as well with a more powerful CPU on board.

Ultimately I don't have an obvious solution for you. You'll have to weight the pros and cons of each device and pick the one you are willing to put up with the most. Personally if I buy something, I prefer it to be something that can do a lot on its own, and later repurposed into just about anything should I get bored with the current project or if it doesn't work out the way I wanted. That makes me biased towards a small form factor PC, but it might be overkill for your project.

Also, did you research how well supported an external touchscreen device actually is under Android or Windows (software-wise) and whether anyone offers a competent product (hardware-wise)? Last time I checked it ranged from nonexistent to terrible. But that was a while ago. And this alone would single-handedly influence the way you approach this. You might have to go through a lot of hoops just to get the touch inputs+display working the way you want it.

Re: Custom foobar theme/config on Android

Reply #6 – 2019-12-28 18:58:45

It won't be uncomfortable because I'm designing it accordingly. The final design won't look like the video because I'll be able to tilt the screen from 0° to 90°, and I'll also be able to slide it forward/backwards. It's one of the perks of being a mechanical engineer.

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Windows is better for a lot of things, and Android is more suitable for some things. Android was designed with touch use in mind, so we can find a lot of apps and games that take advantage of that. And sure, for more serious stuff there's always Windows. But if I want the best of both worlds, I need Windows and Android. I could have settled for Android only, IF foobar for Android was identical to foobar for Windows. But since it's not the case, I'll need both OS.

At some point in my thinking process, I thought about Android emulators. Projects like Android x86 are interesting. But in the end, why bother when for 150 $/€ you can have a full-fledged NVidia TV Box with all the bells and whistles ?

The Touch Table will have many purposes :
- Audio management & playback => foobar => Windows
- Video management => foobar (yes, I use it as a video manager too with a lot of customizations, and it's amazing, much better than Plex & co.) => Windows
- Video playback => depends : NVidia TV Box with its AI upscaling/smart sharpening tech, or Windows (MPC-HC / MPV)
- Comic reading => Android or Windows (both can do the job, but Android apps may be more user-friendly for tactile use)
- Touch gaming => Android, really. Lots of basic funny games for family use. Sure, nothing too complicated, but that's really not the purpose of the Touch Table. If I want serious gaming, I'll build a serious i9 / Threadripper rig, put a RTX2080 inside, and roll ! lol
- Basic web browsing => Windows or Android (but I'm more used to Windows browsers)
- Automation (lights, stores, etc.) => Android or Windows, depending on the devices. But I guess it's mainly Android here. Manufacturers like Xiaomi, Philips & co. offer great apps to manage all their devices from one single point... but AFAIK they run only on Android.
- ...

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Yes, my remote PC is not a NAS : just a PC used for other things. So your comment is actually really interesting ! I could use VNC/RDP and access my screen remotely. I don't know if performance would be better or not :
- Database access would be faster, because I wouldn't need to scan my media library through the network
- But would the UI be responsive enough ? I'll have to test.
I have an old i3 laptop, so I'll install VNC/RDP + UPnP plugin and see if the performance is decent. Thanks for the tip

Another solution would be to just translate my audio/video libraries (about 10 TB) to the Touch Table itself, via a dedicated HDD connected to the Windows box. I'll have to think of that too, but it can come later.

I agree, we have many choices CPU-wise with a low TDP. All I meant was that the fan noise will be a sensitive issue so I need to keep it in mind. Especially since the Windows and Android devices will be quite close to our ears (75cm to 1m50 depending on the use).

Building a small-factor PC is tempting. I'm just not sure that it would be really cheaper than a mini-PC. First I'd need a PSU, and fanless PSUs can be quite expensive. And small factor PSUs tend to be quite noisy because of their small fans. Maybe that's a question I'd need to ask on a dedicated PC hardware discussion forum.

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As for the touchscreen part itself, well, I've already done some research. It's tricky but doable :
- On one side, you have real touchscreens. Some rare manufacturers liks Iiyama have a complete range of LARGE touchscreens up to 86" ! Plus they are open frame for easy mounting. But be prepared to spend about 2500 $/€ for a 40" one. And I'm not ready for that.
- On another side, you can just buy a decent 40" 4K TV for some hundred bucks (300-500 $/€), and then add the touch part. For that you have several solutions :
1. IR Touch Frames like this one : https://www.amazon.com/Chengying-Multi-Touch-Infrared-Overlay-Compatible/dp/B07H5NG5KZ/
2. Capacitive touch films like these : https://zytronic.co.uk/technology/multi-touch/
3. Capacitive touch films like this : https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/33020284005.html

All these solutions have USB interfaces and drivers & calibration apps for both Windows and Android, so installation shouldn't be a problem. I'd only need a manual USB switch to switch between the Android box and the Windows box.
The problem with 1. is that it can't be put behind a glass, so it exposes the TV screen to fingers and glasses full of drinks, which is not a solution for me.
2. and 3. can be put behind a tempered glass surface, up to 10mm or more, which is perfect for me.

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Audio-wise I'll also need an audio switch, with several inputs (Windows box, Android box) and several outputs (Hi-Fi system, Home Theater system). I have already considered that, so I have drawn a complete cabling diagram.

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Overall it's not an easy project, but it's a funny one And foobar will be at the heart of it, that's for sure !