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Topic: Sound Cards for Headphones (Read 12209 times) previous topic - next topic
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Sound Cards for Headphones

I have heard that using integrated soundcards for headphones is fine, but I am pretty sure they are wrong? Does it really make a difference? If so, what soundcard is best for headphones?

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #1 –
Some soundcards have an integrated headphone amplifier. There's a good chance that this will sound better compared to a soundcard where you misuse the line-out to drive the headphone.
For example the Terratec DMX 6fire 24/96 has a 60mW headphone amplifier.

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #2 –
Most modern soundcards have a low-power headphone amplifier already integrated, but this will not be enough to run really inefficient headphones. The Turtle Beach Santa Cruz (roughly 1/4 of the DMX6Fire cost) has dual 60mW headphone amps.
 

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #3 –
Best is a soundcard with a SPDIF digital output. Run that to a $149 receiver for the headphone amp.
flac > schiit modi > schiit magni > hd650

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #4 –
...and that $149 receiver is more than likely to have such a bad headphone  amplifier implementation (too high output impedance and not enough output power), that it's probably not much if any better than the sound card

Honestly, most receivers have so bad headphone amplifier implementation that it really doesn't improve things much.

When you combine this with the fact that most sound cards have horrible amounts of jitter and cheap receivers almost always use the incoming clock as the reference on which the D/A works, the results might actually be worse off than using a decent sound card.

A good sound card for driving headphones will have a decent power output at driving inefficient headphones, near zero ohm output impedance and preferably (IMHO) an analog volume control. However, I don't know of such a sound card, so I use a headphone amplifier for critical listening on difficult headphones.

As to how big the differences are and are they worth it, my opinion is that these (as all sensory issues) are subjective: you have to try it out for yourself using your gear. Then you'll know if it's worth it.

regards,
halcyon

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #5 –
So what would you recommend?
flac > schiit modi > schiit magni > hd650

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #7 –
Quote
Best is a soundcard with a SPDIF digital output. Run that to a $149 receiver for the headphone amp.


  Besides the issue of implementation of the reciever head-amp, many modern sound cards feature better quality DACs than do recievers of 2x the cost.
A $149 reciever is unlikely to have a DAC stage that is in any way better than most moderately priced (say, $70 or more) sound cards, but I suppose it's possible.

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #8 –
Quote
So what would you recommend?

Oh yes, a recommendation.

What is a sound card that is good enough to drive even a moderately difficult headphone set well and can be used for critical listening?

To be honest, I don't know of such a card. RME cards have usually 75 ohm output, although they have nice analog volume controls. I haven't tried more expensive Echo and M-Audio cards, so can't comment on those.

Most consumer game cards have too little power. I also blew up the caps on my Terratec DMX 6fire outboard headphone amplifier box by using it to drive Sennheiser HD600 headphones, which are not that hard to drive.

So to be honest, I don't know of a really inexpensive card that fits this definition, although certainly almost any card can be used, if the headphones are picked to match the card's output power/impedance and we are not overly picky about the quality.

If one already has Audigy, Audiophile, M-Audio Revolution, later Terratec or Prodigy series cards, then I guess an efficient, low impedance headphone with a steady impedance response curve would fit the card. Grado SR-80 fits the bill nicely and for US customers it's relatively inexpensive. For European users I'd recommend Ultrasone HFI-650 Trackmaster (or DVD edition). Of course, personal headphone sound & comfort preferences play into this, so it's best to try out the headphones out oneself.

In a situation where one has already a good headphone set that is not so easy to drive from a sound card (e.g. Sennheiser HD-600), then I'd recommend getting an outboard headphone amp, if one really wants to enjoy the headphones and get the maximum out of them. www.head-fi.org is full of useful reviews. I use Meier-Audio Prehead myself, but there are *many* other choices out there, cheaper and certainly more expensive

YMMV, of course.

regards,
Halcyon

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #9 –
Quote
A good sound card for driving headphones will have a decent power output at driving inefficient headphones, near zero ohm output impedance and preferably (IMHO) an analog volume control.

Turtle Beach Santa Cruz, just to name one card that I own. It has an output impedance of about 10 ohm, low enough to drive any weird-impedance headphone without coloration. I believe it has good power capability too.

BTW, HD600 are not that difficult to drive, because they have a very high output impedance compared with other headphones. You will need a higher voltage to make them sound loud, but that is not very challenging. I have plugged my HD580 (which are in fact the same headphone) at the output of a Revo, Santa Cruz, integrated SoundMax and portable mp3 player, without problems.

Quote
When you combine this with the fact that most sound cards have horrible amounts of jitter


Where do you get this from?

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #10 –
Yes, HD600 is not very difficult to drive. I think it shows how easily even so called 'outboard soundcard amplifier boxes' such as mine on Terratec 6fire can break, when I can break them even with HD600.

As for the jitter part, it's based on reasoning than actual data of all low price sound cards.

My opinion is based on conjecture. The jitter for RME DIGI 96/8 which is supposedly a high quality low-end studio card is measured here:

http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?299:5

Also, most soundcard use very cheap crystals and PLL implementations, so my guess is that they are even more susceptible to jitter. Haven't found measurement data either way though.

Audigy 2 lists jitter rms of c. 3 ns in the specs. This may or may not be audible (based on what I have read). A lot is dependent on the signal and how the D/A converter handles the incoming jittery stream.

PC AV tech has measurements for FM distortion, but those results are quite good for some of the more recent sound cards (like the Santa Cruz).

best regards,
Halcyon

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #11 –
Quote
My opinion is based on conjecture. The jitter for RME DIGI 96/8 which is supposedly a high quality low-end studio card is measured here:

http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?299:5

Those results are strange. I would think same clock drives both the toslink and the coax digital outputs, so such a difference in performance is strange. It could be a huge amount of noise at the digital cable as they suggest, but it's strange. Anyway, the actual analog performance of the card should be measured at the analog outputs, including jitter.

Quote
Also, most soundcard use very cheap crystals and PLL implementations, so my guess is that they are even more susceptible to jitter. Haven't found measurement data either way though.


Jitter at output is consequence of internal clock stability, and I'd say you don't need to use an expensive clock so that it is stable enough.

I don't know if common soundcards use any kind of jitter reduction schemes at their inputs, I'd say most of them don't, but I don't know for sure.

Quote
PC AV tech has measurements for FM distortion, but those results are quite good for some of the more recent sound cards (like the Santa Cruz).


That measurements are what I base on to think that jitter is not an issue on most soundcards.

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #12 –
I was about to make a separate post, but I guess it would do to just ask it here.

On my newly built computer, my ATI Multimedia Center, when running some of its built in tests, notes instability in my sound cards audio clock as being above the program's acceptable limit.  I can find no other information on similar instances of this happening, but the only ideas the program gives me is to make sure I am running the latest drivers for my sound card.  I have a Soundblaster Audigy 2 OEM.
WARNING:  Changing of advanced parameters might degrade sound quality.  Modify them only if you are expirienced in audio compression!

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #13 –
mmortal: I had the same experience with onboard cmedia (if I'm not mistaken) chip. Looks like ATI is unhappy with the card itself. Perhaps it will work anyway. ;-)

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #14 –
Quote
mmortal: I had the same experience with onboard cmedia (if I'm not mistaken) chip. Looks like ATI is unhappy with the card itself. Perhaps it will work anyway. ;-)

hmm, the funny thing is, my computer ALSO has onboard audio, but I DO have it disabled in the BIOS.  I am practically sure that the ATI software is detecting my Audigy 2 as the primary (and only) sound card, and that the onboard audio isn't even noticed by Windows, but it just seems kind of fishy that I thought it might have something to do with onboard audio, and then you mention you had trouble yourself.  I am not ruling this out that there might be some sort of conflict.
WARNING:  Changing of advanced parameters might degrade sound quality.  Modify them only if you are expirienced in audio compression!

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #15 –
Pondering this same issue (soundcard for headphones) right now, and also already have an A2 installed.  What I'm trying to decide is if it's worth the upgrade to an RME for critical listening and using its superior clock for digital playback via a DAC vs. just using RME analog output vs. simply going the A2 --> DAC --> amp route.  I agree with the previous posts about a dedicated headphone amp w/ low impedance cans.  However, there are excellent lower priced cans than can be driven directly by pdcps that do work well with soundcard headphone output.  I'd recommend the Grado SR80's, and the Sony V6;  both can be had for under $100 and both have their respective advantages. More detail and slightly better soundstage with the Sony's; better slam and excellent highs with the Grados.  Personally, I'd go with the Sony's if you don't want an outboard amp, for their sheer versatility and comfort.  My own personal choice for home use is a Grado (just bought a pair of Allesandro MS2s), but that's only because I've got a dedicated amp driving it.  My problem is that the MS2's are a bit ruthless in their presentation, and I've really grown so very unhappy with my soundcard's performance that I absolutely need to either switch cards or get a dac or both.

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #16 –
Fwiw, my Audiophile 24/96 has been able to drive all of my easy-to-drive headphones from the analog line-outs pretty well (not that loudly, but rarely quieter than needed either -- sometimes I even turn down the volume on the mixer depending on source levels).  I notice no particular lack of bass or other issues sometimes cited as problems when driving headphones directly from a soundcard.  For those who call this "abusing" the card -- I disagree.  Afaik there's no rule about what to drive or not drive from the general purpose analog outputs on a soundcard.

P.S. I was using a cheap headphone amp briefly with it, but in my opinion it did tend to distort or otherwise affect the sound negatively (just subjective, I didn't do any blind tests)... so I went back to using the output jacks directly (with an adapter) and put the headphone amp on my phono preamp for listening to records when the computer is off... this sounds better to me than having the soundcard in between.  Maybe I'll eventually spend more on a better headphone amp for the soundcard outputs, at the moment I'm happy enough with the output levels.

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #17 –
High current low impedance headphones on low power output pc sound cards.....not a good idea

If u have a solder build your own amplifier with few euro.

Give a look at the projects here http://headwize2.powerpill.org/projects/index.htm

Look for Kumisa 2 Opamp amplifier or the high end Kumisa 3 Discrete Amplifier or The Zen amplifier.
Thess are true hifi amps (someone uses them with Sennheiser HD600....)

If u like simpler circuits give a look at this
http://www.minidisc.org/headbanger.html

I'm going to build one of these after buying the best affordable good quality headphones on the market that IMHO are AKG K-55 (closed type to avoid external noise.  if u want open ones choose K-66) and cost about 40€
http://www.akg.com/products/powerslave,myn...anguage,EN.html

I'll connect them to my SB PCI128 (but i'll test the audio quality using my Sennheiser and comparing to Yamaha 592 Hi-fi Amplifier headphones out).

Thaks Halcyon for the link that started my search engines tour 

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #18 –
Quote
High current low impedance headphones on low power output pc sound cards.....not a good idea

Heard variations on this over and over again, but rarely or never have I heard of a case of a damaged card from using headphones with it -- in fact Halcyon is the first, and his outboard box may have been damaged or marginal to begin with.  I'm not sure what constitutes high current headphones -- regular dynamic headphones (32-64 ohms or so) aren't speakers, and shouldn't demand high levels of current afaik.  Only a couple thin membranes are being driven, not a lightbulb or hair dryer -- it should be under 500mW at the usual output levels.

Again fwiw, I've used headphones (Grado SR60, Denon AHD550, Koss Portapro) with my SB PCI128 for *years* and never encountered even a hint of a problem, except sometimes too-low levels listening to DVD's in particular.

P.S. glad you have the skills & desire to build your own amp -- for those that don't, adding a minimum of about $100 for a decent headphone amp onto a $150 soundcard nearly doubles the cost.

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #19 –
Quote
Heard variations on this over and over again, but rarely or never have I heard of a case of a damaged card from using headphones with it.  I'm not sure what constitutes high current headphones -- regular dynamic headphones (32-64 ohms or so) aren't speakers, and shouldn't demand high levels of current afaik.  Only a couple thin membranes are being driven, not a lightbulb or hair dryer -- it should be under 500mW at the usual output levels.

Never spoke of damage.
Remember that u are talking of NOMINAL impedance. Some hi-fi speaker with nominal impedance of 8ohm go as low as 2 ohm at certain frequencies. Besides u forget TRANSIENTS in the signal and inductive effect of coils. I know that they are only headphones but as u don't use a 15W amplifier on your 150w speakers because thay lack fidelity, so u should not use 10mW soundcard amplifiers with 200-500 mW headphones.
They work as a scooter engine on a truck.

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #20 –
Quote
Never spoke of damage.
Remember that u are talking of NOMINAL impedance. Some hi-fi speaker with nominal impedance of 8ohm go as low as 2 ohm at certain frequencies. Besides u forget TRANSIENTS in the signal and inductive effect of coils. I know that they are only headphones but as u don't use a 15W amplifier on your 150w speakers because thay lack fidelity, so u should not use 10mW soundcard amplifiers with 200-500 mW headphones.
They work as a scooter engine on a truck.

I wouldn't know how to measure output levels for a card like the Audiophile 24/96, and it isn't listed in the manual anywhere.  The analog output level is fixed, and only digital levels are adjustable through the 36-bit hardware mixer on the card.

After listening to my low impedance cans directly from the Audiophile 24/96 and through a cheap ($70) headphone amp connected to the card, my opinion is that SQ is definitely worse through the amp... there's a significant loss of detail and a sort of muddying of the sound.  Maybe I'll get a more expensive amp eventually, but $100-$150 isn't trivial to my budget (and I assume many others here on HA also... which is probably why a lot of people are using headphones on the output jack of their soundcards).

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #21 –
Quote
High current low impedance headphones on low power output pc sound cards.....not a good idea

Meh. Been there, heard that.

Most low impendance headphones have high efficiency, so they can be driven through most sound cards quite loud.
It will give beter quality than driving their output through some crappy resistor found in most integrated amps. (tried it)

Don't forget that most (not all) headphone amps are designed for high impendance headphones
and will be very noisy for low impandance ones.
ruxvilti'a

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #22 –
I am going to build a computer system and i don't want any flashy sound devices all i want is to hear it the way it was ment to be heard.  I am living in a dorm so headphones are my only option. I am going to build it in  a month or so.  I want to make sure i get headphones that my sound card can easily handle yet still yield good maybe not excellent sound.  I mainly listen to jazz and new soul(don't know if that narrows down my search) because i also listen to rock. So for say 300 to spend on my sound card and headphones what can i get that can give good quality for computer play back.  Oh and i will watch tv on my computer system so my headphones must be comfortable.  I saw some 20 dollar soneys and best buy.  I might just go with those cheapies lol  i can't afford and amp.

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #23 –
Quote
I am going to build a computer system and i don't want any flashy sound devices all i want is to hear it the way it was ment to be heard.  I am living in a dorm so headphones are my only option. I am going to build it in  a month or so.  I want to make sure i get headphones that my sound card can easily handle yet still yield good maybe not excellent sound.  I mainly listen to jazz and new soul(don't know if that narrows down my search) because i also listen to rock. So for say 300 to spend on my sound card and headphones what can i get that can give good quality for computer play back.  Oh and i will watch tv on my computer system so my headphones must be comfortable.  I saw some 20 dollar soneys and best buy.  I might just go with those cheapies lol  i can't afford and amp.

M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 or one of the Terratecs, plus Grado SR-60's (very comfortable with the "flat" pads, IMO... but the cord is a bit of a PITA).

Sound Cards for Headphones

Reply #24 –
so what makes these headphones better suited for extened listening in the dorm each particular headphone and the specs would be nice i am looking them up right now. Thanks for the reply