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Topic: Isolating / noise cancelling headphones (Read 10824 times) previous topic - next topic
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Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Lately I have found myself doing a lot of work around loud but not particularly dangerous equipment. This has given me the desire and the opportunity to investigate headphones that isolate against noise, which I've never looked at before.

I imagine the most difficult scenario for an NR system to deal with would be operating a gas-powered leaf blower (so broad-spectrum noise coming from a machine strapped to my back). Would this type of thing pose a difficulty for active noise cancelling?

I'm also looking for recommendations for specific models of headphones. My budget is around $100, I can go a little over that but not much. They don't even need to be active noise cancelling - purely passive might even be better, if it means cheaper. I'm thinking something of the caliber of an aviation headset's sound isolation. I may in fact have an aviation headset around here that I could dig up, but from what I remember they don't use the normal headphone plugs (mono?) and they of course have a mic that I'd rather do without. It would also be good to have sound quality better than a telephone, although fidelity definitely comes after isolation on the list of priorities.

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #1 –
Active noise cancelling headphones, such as the Bose QC15, offer only a modest noise reduction, mostly in a limited range, take electricity, and under certain conditions introduce audible hiss due to the electronics. Noise blocking headphones, such as Etymotics, are much better in all these regards and the best are basically noise suppression earplugs which have a small hole bored out of them for the insertion of the wanted sound from the driver(s).


These Etymotics are so good, with nearly 20-30 dB of extra isolation at >1 kHz compared to the Bose, they are literally "off the chart" in their ability to suppress noise where we are most sensitive to it, around 3-4 kHz or so.

edit to add: Their more affordable models, some with street prices under $100, should offer very similar isolation figures.

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #2 –
Yeah, good ANC on-ear headphones do about 20-25 dB, like the Bose line.

Isolating in-ears tend to isolate like hearing protection earplugs, which means lots of isolation at high frequencies. But don't assume that all in-ears isolate well.
"I hear it when I see it."

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #3 –
Honestly, I would just get the in-ears that you prefer from a sound and comfort perspective, and then put a normal set of earmuffs over them for protection.

Alternatively, you may want to look at what professionals use in industries with loud equipment, where there is usually also a need for listening or two-way communication. They use headsets like these, which are high quality hearing protection with integrated headphones:

https://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_U...9207&rt=rud

I'm not saying that 3M Peltor is the only choice, but you should know that these products are out there and widely used. They're a bit above your budget (Amazon currently has them for ~$150), but they're built to last, have good sound isolation and surprisingly good quality sound, especially if you can find the ones co-designed with Sennheiser that they put out a couple of years back.

Don't even bother with active noise reduction headphones. They work OK for constant droning low-frequency noise like you get when flying, but they suck at everything else.

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #4 –
Quote from: KozmoNaut on
Don't even bother with active noise reduction headphones. They work OK for constant droning low-frequency noise like you get when flying, but they suck at everything else.


For me, all the "in ears" I've tried make me constantly aware of my pulse and exaggerate the sound of my teeth grinding when I eat.  Not much fun and gets in the way of enjoying the music, for me anyway.

I don't mind just getting rid of the low frequency external noise while still being able to hear much of the midrange.  In fact I prefer it that way.  My Bose QC25's are a preferred solution for me and make bus travel and even walking along noisy streets much more pleasant, as well as having a quite decent sound, especially with a little tweaking from the equalizer on my tablet computer.  I imagine they would be fine for air travel if I ever did any of that.  Now I have always disliked Bose products and fundamentally disagree with their design approach to loudspeakers, so it was personally very annoying to find that, in this one area, the Bose headphones worked best for me.

Admittedly the price is well out of the range of the OP's budget.  I had Sennheiser 450's for a few years and never did like their sound quality.  Their IE7 in ears sounded great and I used them a lot in spite of the problems I noted above.

And of course the QC25's can be quite uncomfortable on muggy summer days.

Bose also makes in ears with sound cancelling added in.  I have no idea how good or bad they are.

Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH
 

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Ed Seedhouse on
For me, all the "in ears" I've tried make me constantly aware of my pulse and exaggerate the sound of my teeth grinding when I eat.  Not much fun and gets in the way of enjoying the music, for me anyway.


Cable noise as well. It's the tradeoff for putting something in direct contact with the inside of your ear, increased internal noise for decreased external noise.

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #6 –
I have used both Shure IEMs and Bose QC 25 canceling over them with the cord detached. Perfect complement, used them on a plane. I use the QC 25 at home for movies late at night too, completely kill the fridge hum though for that purpose it's kinda overkill, but since I already have them... Also to get a nap with the big powerful window fan at full power.

Sorry, I know that's way over the OP's budget, but I think one needs to compromise either the low or the mid-high freqs when choosing either active or passive noise canceling.

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #7 –
Quote from: andy o on
I have used both Shure IEMs and Bose QC 25 canceling over them with the cord detached.


I've done that, though not with the same phones.

I now sleep with a CPAP machine blowing air into my nose, and an oxygen concentrator adding in some extra O2.  The concentrator makes quite a bit of noise, though the CPAP machine is reasonably quiet.  I've taken to sleeping with the QC25's over my ears with no cable.  Makes things nice and quiet and lets me sleep in spite of the noise.  I've tried foam earplugs and they don't work nearly as well.

Quote
Sorry, I know that's way over the OP's budget, but I think one needs to compromise either the low or the mid-high freqs when choosing either active or passive noise canceling.


For pure noise elimination nothing I've used beats a pair of industrial noise blockers.  They clamp right down on your head and all the noise goes away for around fifty bucks.  But they are a pain to wear and provide no music.  You might be able to slide a pair of cheap but decent in-ears under their earpads, and get the best of both worlds, but you'd have to be able to stand the pressure from the big noise blockers.  I tried a set and I couldn't stand them for any length of time for that reason.


Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #9 –
get a pair of cheap etymotic IEMs. as passive isolation you can't really expect much better.
the etykid even if the name isn't encouraging are just fine I use them a lot, just a warning if your sound source is really weak in voltage, they are about 300ohm(it's the all idea, not to be able to go too loud so that kyds don't ruin their ears).
even if later on you wish to go for a better model of etymotic, I still advise to first buy those(they're super cheap) just to see if you can stand the world famous ear probing of Ety. the first day you will hurt yourself while trying the tips, it's an accepted rule. some people can wear them all day long, others can't stand them 5mn, so you really have to try.
all the models have about the same shape (except hf5 that have a slightly larger shell) so if the cheap etykid is fine you're clear for almost everything else from the brand.
might need an EQ too, and if you want big sub bass, just forget the entire idea of etymotic.

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #10 –
I really don't like IEMs, possibly because of my narrow ear canals but even without that I don't think I'd like them.

I'm really looking closer at aviation headsets now - thinking about it more, the mic probably wouldn't bother me and I could always remove it if it did. I'm seeing some for not much over $100, but the reviews give little indication of the sound quality, other than it was easy to talk to the tower.

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #11 –
Those are probably tuned for voice/intelligibility, not necessarily music.

Also, even the ~500+ € Sennheiser pro aviation headset with ANC are specified for just about 15 dB noise reduction.
"I hear it when I see it."

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #12 –
Quote from: mzil on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9cHywPIPfs

I have heard/read this claim many times, that active noise cancelling is not very good for higher pitch and short sounds. I understand high-pitch, but short sounds? In order to cancel low frequency sounds, the latency of the DSP should still be very short, shouldn't it? Why would it have trouble canceling short low-pitch sounds as opposed to longer low-pitched sounds? Anecdotally, I haven't noticed it with my QC25's, and I tried.

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #13 –
Quote from: andy o on
Quote from: mzil on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9cHywPIPfs

I have heard/read this claim many times, that active noise cancelling is not very good for higher pitch and short sounds. I understand high-pitch, but short sounds? In order to cancel low frequency sounds, the latency of the DSP should still be very short, shouldn't it? Why would it have trouble canceling short low-pitch sounds as opposed to longer low-pitched sounds? Anecdotally, I haven't noticed it with my QC25's, and I tried.



maybe that idea comes from some super bad microphones that suck at high frequencies?
sony noise cancelling IEMs were totally useless against a crying baby, and a race car passing by would sound like a moped as only the low freqs would go away(kind of funny TBH). but I seem to remember that it was on purpose(or so they said), to avoid pedestrians putting themselves in danger. maybe the all idea comes from people using sony DAPs?

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #14 –
Quote from: andy o on
Quote from: mzil on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9cHywPIPfs
I have heard/read this claim many times, that active noise cancelling is not very good for higher pitch and short sounds. I understand high-pitch, but short sounds? In order to cancel low frequency sounds, the latency of the DSP should still be very short, shouldn't it?
 

Not all active NC headphones are digital, in fact one of the problems with digital is that they often can be slow:

"There are three basic categories of noise cancellation systems as far as implementation goes. digital

systems are more versatile and often lead to better noise cancellation. They allow a greater degree of

  freedom, and algorithms like LMS allow active noise cancellation which is optimal in a certain sense.

The problem with digital systems is that they are often quite slow and require training sequences to

find the ideal filter coecients for the adaptive filter."

Source.

---

Bose is suing Beats  headphones over patent infringement and one of the patents is titled: " Method and apparatus for minimizing latency in digital signal processing systems". I can't find any third party analysis of Bose QC25 latency but perhaps it is lower than most, such that addressing the correction of brief, transient sounds is indeed addressable, whereas for other brands all it would do is introduce an out of phase echo?

When you turn your Bose headphones on (in the presence of an obvious, droning bass sound to cancel) is there a slight pause before the NC kicks in or does it seem to be instantaneous?

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #15 –
Quote from: andy o on
I have heard/read this claim many times, that active noise cancelling is not very good for higher pitch and short sounds. I understand high-pitch, but short sounds? In order to cancel low frequency sounds, the latency of the DSP should still be very short, shouldn't it? Why would it have trouble canceling short low-pitch sounds as opposed to longer low-pitched sounds? Anecdotally, I haven't noticed it with my QC25's, and I tried.


At high frequencies there's enough isolation and no need to ANC.

As for timing etc... most ANC headphones use analog circuitry. The basic mode of operation is just taking the signal from the mic, inverting it, mixing that with the signal from your source. You don't need fancy DSP for that.


I don't see how the length of a sound plays any role here.
"I hear it when I see it."

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #16 –
Ah, disregard my mention of DSP, I only said it cause the guy in the video mentioned it.

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #17 –
I'm someone in need of noise-cancelling or isolating ear-phones for sleep. I actually bought custom made ear plugs, but they don't isolate certain frequencies well.

Any ideas? Does anyone here sleep with noise-cancelling in-ear phones + ear muffs, or....? I live in an apartment and my neighbor above me I can hear foot steps and the like. Annoying as hell.

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Rich B on
I'm someone in need of noise-cancelling or isolating ear-phones for sleep. I actually bought custom made ear plugs, but they don't isolate certain frequencies well.


"Custom" as in you went to an audiologist and had cast impressions of your ear canals made?

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #19 –
Quote from: mzil on
Quote from: Rich B on
I'm someone in need of noise-cancelling or isolating ear-phones for sleep. I actually bought custom made ear plugs, but they don't isolate certain frequencies well.


"Custom" as in you went to an audiologist and had cast impressions of your ear canals made?


Yes. At first they fit very snugly, excellent sound isolation but I found that they caused lots of pain after a few hours of use. I literally woke up during the night feeling throbbing ear pain, so I asked them to shorten them, to reduce the pain. Now I don't feel as much discomfort (still do however, just not as much) but they don't work as effectively now! Catch 22. : (

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #20 –
The links unfortunately don't work for me now [not sure if it is my browser's security settings] but I mentioned here some years back that custom molds are actually inferior in some ways regarding isolation.  They work on the premise that one's ear canals are always the same shape, and guess what, they aren't. Remember when they took your impression they probably told you to leave you mouth partly open? That's because even the position of your jaw can alter your ear canal shape. That's just one reason.

For maximum isolation you want to use the expanding foam tips option your earphones may have come with [or buy them from Etymotic] You know, the yellow/orange/gray ones you first roll into a tight cylinder and then allow to expand while held in position in your ears, as deeply as safely possible. The advantage of the foam is that as your ear canal contorts the foam expands to fill the gaps. Your ear molds can't do that so losing a good seal to block out the external world is not uncommon.

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #21 –
Thanks Mzil.

I can probably buy a pair with the expanding foam etc, I don't think they cost much. But you reckon that will offer better isolation and will be more comfortable?

I spend a lot of money on these custom earplugs thinking it was the correct approach to good sound isolation, so that was basically a waste of money.  I have feelings of anxiety whenever I'm ready to sleep because I'm anticipating noises from above, and this happens regularly.

Just getting a good nights sleep is such a mission, at least it is for me, but hopeful these earplugs can help.

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #22 –
Quote from: Rich B on
I can probably buy a pair with the expanding foam etc, I don't think they cost much. But you reckon that will offer better isolation and will be more comfortable?
You can buy a basic pair of noise blocking foam earplugs, such as the Classic E-A-R earplugs made by 3M,  at many hardware stores from a box of many, in the same aisle that they sell safety glasses [hopefully you won't have to buy a whole box, but here it is what I mean]. They are meant to block industrial noise like jackhammers. These are dirt cheap so you could buy those first as an experiment to see how you like them before you invest in the style with the bored out central tube for earphone use.

If you insert them deeply and get a good seal (wetting them slightly is a trick some people find useful) they block noise so well you won't hear your alarm clock in the morning. As for comfort, that's subjective, you'll have to try them to see for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QZ7o9KAH4I

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Any ideas? Does anyone here sleep with noise-cancelling in-ear phones + ear muffs, or....? I live in an apartment and my neighbor above me I can hear foot steps and the like. Annoying as hell.


I sleep with Bose QC-25's over my ears every night.  I breath through a hose and face mask connected to a CPAP machine and with an oxygen line hooked up to an oxygen concentrator.  The concentrator in particular is darned noisy.  So every night, on goes the mask and then on go the headphones disconnected from their wire and I get to sleep in quiet.  I tried the foam earplugs but they don't work nearly as well for me.

It does mean buying rather more batteries than I would prefer but is worth it for the sleep.  The CPAP plus the extra O2 for the last six months have made a big improvement in my daily life, so I am willing to fork out a little more for the batteries.


Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Isolating / noise cancelling headphones

Reply #24 –
Quote from: Ed Seedhouse on
I tried the foam earplugs but they don't work nearly as well for me.
  You might not have liked their comfort, but as far as noise isolation goes, properly sealed earplug based designs such as the Etymotic ER4P blow away the isolation provided by the Bose. They also happen to be exceptionally accurate earphones.

First here's a chart which demonstrates that under different test conditions than my first graph I posted in the thread, carried out by a different testing group, the newer Bose QC25 are only marginally different than their QC15s, so they should be considered comparable in terms of isolation:



  And now the Bose vs. the Etymotic:

Quote from: mzil on


These Etymotics are so good, with nearly 20-30 dB of extra isolation at >1 kHz compared to the Bose, they are literally "off the chart" in their ability to suppress noise where we are most sensitive to it, around 3-4 kHz or so.


The Etymotic come with both expanding foam plugs and also silicone plugs for quicker insertion. It is unclear which were used for the test however foam are better at isolation so either what we see here is "best case scenario" [they used the supplied foam tips] or even better than what is graphed above could be achieved, by substituting the silicone tips with the foam ones.