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Topic: Can mics be better or worse for loud or ambient sounds? (Read 3420 times) previous topic - next topic
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Can mics be better or worse for loud or ambient sounds?

OK so I do understand mics vary in senstivity and in pick-up patterns but that's not exactly what I'm asking.

I was googling some stuff about USB mics for PC/iOS, and I got the Samson Meteor. I ran into this thread. I'm like 98% sure user "TwoCables" is full of BS regarding condenser vs. dynamic. The problem the OP had was more likely with the gain and position of the mic, as another pointed out.

But are there any such differences in mics? Can one mic pick up more ambient sounds while picking up the same level of close-up (louder) sounds if the pick-up pattern and frequency response is roughly same (effectively compressing the sound), or does picking up ambient sounds always boils down to sensitivity and noise floor, which would of course make the close-up sounds just louder?

Conversely, can a mic naturally isolate close-up sounds and minimize ambient noise (again, regardless of pick-up pattern and FR) compared to other mics?

Can mics be better or worse for loud or ambient sounds?

Reply #1 –
Quote from: andy o on
OK so I do understand mics vary in senstivity and in pick-up patterns but that's not exactly what I'm asking.

I was googling some stuff about USB mics for PC/iOS, and I got the Samson Meteor. I ran into this thread. I'm like 98% sure user "TwoCables" is full of BS regarding condenser vs. dynamic.


Please be kind. You linked a thread with 69 posts at this point, and you are potentially demanding that it be read in its entirety to make sense of your post.

I found BS in the second paragraph of the seventh post, and without further guidance that may have to suffice. While TwoCables makes a number of good points, his ideas about some differences between ccondensor and dynamic mics are as wrong as you seem to be suggesting.

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The problem the OP had was more likely with the gain and position of the mic, as another pointed out.


That is a truism. ;-)

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But are there any such differences in mics? Can one mic pick up more ambient sounds while picking up the same level of close-up (louder) sounds if the pick-up pattern and frequency response is roughly same (effectively compressing the sound),


The response to close and distant sources can vary tremendously between microphones, even microphones that are both capacitor or both dynamic.  For example, take the classic shotgun microphone seen at news conferences and the like. Consider the less extreme differences between omnis and cardioid or hypercardioids.  Shotgun, omnis, cardioids, supercardioids, and hypercardioid mics have all been built based on both dynamic and condenser mic technology. 30 years ago they were usually dynamic, this year they are usually condensers.

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or does picking up ambient sounds always boils down to sensitivity and noise floor, which would of course make the close-up sounds just louder?


Differences in directionality can be very significant even when both mics are based on the same technology, have the same sensitivity (which is usually based on near sources) and internal noise specs.

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Conversely, can a mic naturally isolate close-up sounds and minimize ambient noise (again, regardless of pick-up pattern and FR) compared to other mics?


No. When that happens there are always differences in directivity unless there is some complex signal processing going on inside the mic which your question seems to exclude.  For example, a mic could have a DSP inside of it, and that opens the door to another world of differences.

For example this mic seems to have something similar called "...Samson Sound Deck Noise Cancellation Software brings noise cancellation technology for enhanced VoIP communication and computer recording to your Meteor Mic. Sound Deck uses Digital Noise Reduction algorithms to minimize recurring background noise from loud environments, ensuring only clean, natural sounding vocals are received by your family, friends or business associates. "

But the mic itself seems to be a nice little inexpensive cardioid USB mic.

A sister product, the "Go Mic" provides both omni and cardioid pickup patterns. I've heard good things about it.

Can mics be better or worse for loud or ambient sounds?

Reply #2 –
I thought the post was clear enough without having to read all of TwoCables's posts, I apologize. I wasn't asking about different pick-up patterns, directionality or condenser vs. dynamic though, just mics in general.

But I think you did answer the question with this: "No. When that happens there are always differences in directivity unless there is some complex signal processing going on inside the mic". Thanks.

Regarding the Samson mics, I did buy the Go Mic before this one (still have it, but it's going back), and the switch for the patterns is very flimsy and came broken, the cardioid setting is not working. I decided to get the more expensive Meteor, cause I thought construction might be better, and also cause I think it looks very cool, but the legs were making the mic just a bit tilted to one side, and the volume level wheel was making a scratchy sound at the lowest. Don't know if QC is a problem with Samson.

Can mics be better or worse for loud or ambient sounds?

Reply #3 –
You'd have to know more detailed polar patterns, sensitivity, noise floor ... to make precise statements about the mics in question.

Sadly, some manufacturers only supply meaningless specs like "20 Hz - 20 kHz, cardoid". That's like saying: "yes, our mic picks up sound, but not so good from the back" ...

It could still be sensitive enough to pick up computer noise, regardless of the mic's position.

"I hear it when I see it."

Can mics be better or worse for loud or ambient sounds?

Reply #4 –
That's actually a great explanation of "cardioid!"

I'll remember it. Despite seeing the diagrams, both 2D and 3D, I still get confused.
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Can mics be better or worse for loud or ambient sounds?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on
That's actually a great explanation of "cardioid!"

I'll remember it. Despite seeing the diagrams, both 2D and 3D, I still get confused.


In short, a cardioid picks up everything in the front hemisphere with loss of no more than 3 dB for a standard cardioid. There are fat cardioids that differ in obvious ways which you can discern from their names.  The attenuation falls off with increasing loss until you are right behind the mic, where there is a deep null.

Hypercardioids shrink the acceptance angle to about 90 degrees, but lack the rearward facing deep null.

Unless a great deal of effort is expended, the off axis attenuation of a cardioid varies pretty strongly with frequency and they are close to being omnidirectional at the lowest frequencies and far more highly directional at the highest frequencies. 

Microphone spec sheets and particularly directionality charts IME warrant highly skeptical inspection and interpretation.  Every once in a while I see spec sheets that bear no relationship to the type of mic I'm supposed to be looking at or how its directionality actually works out to be.

Can mics be better or worse for loud or ambient sounds?

Reply #6 –
For me, the confusion was enhanced by seeing so many people holding common mics such as SM57/SM58 pointing upwards and talking or singing across them, that, for a long time, I thought that was the right way to use them.

The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Can mics be better or worse for loud or ambient sounds?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: andy o on
Conversely, can a mic naturally isolate close-up sounds and minimize ambient noise (again, regardless of pick-up pattern and FR) compared to other mics?


Thats basically what directional mics do, but they do it via their angular/spatial acceptance pattern specifically. 

If you are asking if one can isolate part of a waveform based on something other than its amplitude, frequency, temporal, spatial or angular extent, the answer is no. 

Can mics be better or worse for loud or ambient sounds?

Reply #8 –
^ That was the question, but how do you isolate based on amplitude alone? If Arnold's response seems to me it's saying that you can do it with processing, but the mic can't do it by itself. Unless I'm misunderstanding.
 

Can mics be better or worse for loud or ambient sounds?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: andy o on
^ That was the question, but how do you isolate based on amplitude alone? If Arnold's response seems to me it's saying that you can do it with processing, but the mic can't do it by itself. Unless I'm misunderstanding.


The most common way to do noise suppression via DSP is to use two microphones, which is really just another way of saying that its based on directivity.  For trivial cases like a repetitive tone you can also try to remove it via prediction.