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Topic: Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete? (Read 15076 times) previous topic - next topic
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Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Hi all

I am in the middle of ripping my beloved music collection.  The CDs are being sold, so I will be left with FLACs (1.2.1) for playback on PC, and mp3s for my iPod Classic.  I've got three hard drives in all (one off site).

I got to thinking...  Is there any chance that some time in the distant future FLAC might become an obsolete file format?  Or is it likely to be around for ever?  Are there other file formats (wav for example) which might be likely to be around for longer?

And would the fact that I am using FLAC 1.2.1 rather than 1.3.1 have any baring on the matter?  If so, how easy it is it to convert 1.2.1 FLACs to 1.3.1.

I'm more than happy to be told I am being stupid, paranoid, or both.  But I just suddenly had this vision that after I have finished ripping my collection and I no longer keep up with DAE topics or suchlike, that I wake up one day in 10 years time or so to find that things have moved on and FLAC files are no longer usable. 

Cheers

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #1 –
Unless you plan on pulling a Rip Van Winkle move and literally sleeping for 10 years, I think you'll get plenty of advance notice if FLAC support ever goes away completely.

Regarding FLAC 1.2 vs FLAC 1.3, I'm not aware of any existing decoder that will work for one but not the other. Someone more knowledgeable than I could give you the technical explanation, but the the file formats between the two versions are basically the same.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #2 –
I would say no.  trust me, I have no technical knowledge on the encoding.  however, I would imagine that it is all the same in regards to reading the files.  all these updates are are updates in the encoding process, to make it faster or slightly smaller (which is on a scale of exponential decay, something to keep in mind, that an update from version 1 to 2 would be a much better update than version 4 to 7, in generic terms, not any specific update here).  the reading of the files would be basically the exact same.

that said, there is nothing restricting them from issuing a non-backwards compatible update, if they suddenly decide that they have invented/discovered a much better way to read pcm audio data.  although, in this case you could simply convert from old flac (you could doubtless find the old encoders/decoders) to wav or something, and then into the new flac codec. 
again, this would only be an issue if you were to use your old encoded files with a hypothetical "new" codec reading device/program that wouldn't be able to use the old standard, which would be generally unlikely.  .mp1, mpeg 1 audio layer 1, i believe is still supported by many media players actually.  that would be a more difficult compatibility issue, because it is encoded lossy, so the only option would be severely reduced quality reencoding to a new mp3, r to encode with a lossless codec and take up a lot of space.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #3 –
From a legal standpoint, ripping all your cds and selling them may not be the way to go's. I believe owning physical media gives you a license top that music. Once the ownership of the physical media has been transferred to someone else, I don't think you have a right to those FLAC files.

If you don't care about that stuff, more power to you.

Even if FLAC isn't here in 80 years, FLAC converters will be.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: MaxDread on
Hi all

I am in the middle of ripping my beloved music collection.  The CDs are being sold, so I will be left with FLACs (1.2.1) for playback on PC, and mp3s for my iPod Classic.  I've got three hard drives in all (one off site).

I got to thinking...  Is there any chance that some time in the distant future FLAC might become an obsolete file format?  Or is it likely to be around for ever?  Are there other file formats (wav for example) which might be likely to be around for longer?

And would the fact that I am using FLAC 1.2.1 rather than 1.3.1 have any baring on the matter?  If so, how easy it is it to convert 1.2.1 FLACs to 1.3.1.

I'm more than happy to be told I am being stupid, paranoid, or both.  But I just suddenly had this vision that after I have finished ripping my collection and I no longer keep up with DAE topics or suchlike, that I wake up one day in 10 years time or so to find that things have moved on and FLAC files are no longer usable. 

Cheers


Short answer is that technology always evolves and FLAC will one day be obsolete. Obsolete is not the same as unusable. There will undoubtedly be legacy support for a LONG time although there may come a time far in the future where FLAC is not natively supported in your favorite app and they need to be converted via a standalone utility. Again guarantee that some creative soul will create a batch utility for this purpose.  So odds are good that you will lose your hearing before you lose ability to retrieve your FLAC files. 100% guarantee that current state of the art will make converting those files about as appealing as revisiting your 1st MP3 rips at 128 kbps 

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: MaxDread on
that I wake up one day in 10 years time or so to find that things have moved on and FLAC files are no longer usable.

FLAC is one of the most widely (probably the most widely except for PCM WAV) supported lossless audio formats. It has been implemented independently in ffmpeg and javascript, and it will be supported natively in Windows 10. Furthermore, every file since FLAC 0.5 (which was released in 2001) is still decodable with the current implementations, and the devs like to keep it that way. I think you can be pretty sure you can still find a decoder/converter in 10 years from now, maybe even 20 years.
Music: sounds arranged such that they construct feelings.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #6 –
Yes, You are being paranoid. As noted, these are LOSSLESS files and if new and improved noncompatible formats are created, you will have ample opportunity to batch convert your FLAC files to the new format. I still have computer files from the late 1970s created with Apple II or TRS-80 computers that were later converted to something now useable on my modern computers.

Regarding converting from 1.21 to 1.31. Yes, this is a trivial exercise.

Your only concern should be in maintaining good backups (multiple backups, stored in different locations).

p.s. I don't know what country you are in, but for example, in the United States if you no longer own the CDs that you ripped the digital files from, you legally must delete the files you ripped.  You only have the right to have the ripped digital files because you own the CDs you ripped them from.  This said, it is highly unlikely that the copyright police are going to bust down your doors looking for you.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Beatswork on
100% guarantee that current state of the art will make converting those files about as appealing as revisiting your 1st MP3 rips at 128 kbps 


I'm going to assume I'm misreading your intent here, so do you mind explaining what you mean here?  For surely you don't mean that batch transcoding FLAC files will ever be hard or unappealingly tedious?
Creature of habit.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Soap on
Quote from: Beatswork on
100% guarantee that current state of the art will make converting those files about as appealing as revisiting your 1st MP3 rips at 128 kbps 


I'm going to assume I'm misreading your intent here, so do you mind explaining what you mean here?  For surely you don't mean that batch transcoding FLAC files will ever be hard or unappealingly tedious?


No just reflecting on fact that I ripped many, many CD's in early days using LAME command line utility to low bit rate MP3. Sure I can still listen to them but they sound absolutely horrible against lossless FLAC. Now FLAC is lossless but you can bet on the fact that they will figure out a way to remaster old material in a completely new way which offers greater flexibility and sound quality. Think that's far fetched? Imagine a 1 gig file which encodes original master, remaster, demo version, true surround, information on room acoustics etc etc. Continuously increasing storage capacity, processing power, DAC design almost guarantee it IMHO.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #9 –
I doubt your mp3s will sound horrible and do not see how future technology could make existing CDs sound worse.  Two channel audio is a long solved problem. If you are expecting improvements you will be disappointed.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #10 –
In short, no.

To be more detailed, FLAC is a lossless codec so even if FLAC support ever became uncommon you can transcode to the new lossless hotness at any time with no loss in quality. Worried about waking up one day unable to decode FLAC? Well, here's the source code:

http://downloads.xiph.org/releases/flac/

I keep a copy of the source tarballs for FLAC, OGG Vorbis, and Opus on the same error correcting, redundant array (and backups) that I keep my media library on. If I wake up some day in some dystopic future where all FLAC support has vanished from all computers I'll still be able to compile my own, or if it's really a different computing world I'd be able to port it to whatever systems are in common use.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Beatswork on
No just reflecting on fact that I ripped many, many CD's in early days using LAME command line utility to low bit rate MP3. Sure I can still listen to them but they sound absolutely horrible against lossless FLAC.


Issue 1 here is the fault spending the time to rip to lossy, which means resources were devoted to a task which could be done better.  Ripping to FLAC (or any other lossless codec) doesn't suffer the same problem.

Quote from: Beatswork on
Now FLAC is lossless but you can bet on the fact that they will figure out a way to remaster old material in a completely new way which offers greater flexibility and sound quality. Think that's far fetched? Imagine a 1 gig file which encodes original master, remaster, demo version, true surround, information on room acoustics etc etc. Continuously increasing storage capacity, processing power, DAC design almost guarantee it IMHO.


Issue 2 here is completely different.  Might <insert favorite album here> come out in the future in a wonderfully superior format?  Sure it might.  While that's unlikely it doesn't change the fact that the FLAC rip of <insert favorite album here> will be just as perfect a copy and just as usable X years from now as it is today.  Arguing that a new superior album release might come out and therefore today's rip may one day be obsolete doesn't mean FLAC is obsolete, it means the album you own today is obsolete - an answer to a different (and unasked) question.
Creature of habit.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Soap on
Issue 1 here is the fault spending the time to rip to lossy, which means resources were devoted to a task which could be done better.  Ripping to FLAC (or any other lossless codec) doesn't suffer the same problem.



It was not a fault in 1999 - the cost of storage made lossless ripping non-feasible.  You're arguing with me although we're saying essentially the same thing.  The OP will be able to access his FLAC rips for a LONG, LONG time.  I've just been through enough physical media iterations (LP, 8-Track, Cassette, Laserdisk, CD, HDCD, SACD) and "electronic" formats MP3, OGG, WAV, FLAC (thrown in DSD, DSD 128, 16, 24, 32 bit etc.) and I have a somewhat more cynical view on the longevity of any particular format. Something better will come along eventually- guaranteed.  Saying that a format will never be obsolete is short sighted at best.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #13 –
Flac may eventually become unpopular as a format but its not really possible for it to become obsolete.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #14 –
I think the only thing that would make FLAC an unpopular format is if a new lossless compression format comes out that offers significant space savings over FLAC.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #15 –
I think this is not really an issue. Even if it loses popularity and another format takes its place, it's not like you won't be able to play them.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #16 –
You can convert FLAC back to WAV.  There are too many people that use FLAC that even if a new format was developed that made it preferable over FLAC, there would be someone that would develop the software to convert it to the new format.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: MaxDread on
...
I'm more than happy to be told I am being stupid, paranoid, or both.  ...


Ok, you're being stupid and paranoid. 

...just kidding. Pretty sure FLAC will outlive most people posting here though. There's still ways to play records and cassettes. If I really needed to I could get a DAT player and transfer the contents of DAT tapes to an HDD  ...which is kinda my point: You can see when formats begin to fall out of favor and will have ample time to make lossless conversions. If FLAC support becomes scarce in your lifetime it will be far easier to convert than dicking around with DAT tapes.

FLAC is the greatest thing in the world. Think of all the records, tapes, and even CDs that never have to be handled again due to lossless compression...and yet those formats still exist.
The Loudness War is over. Now it's a hopeless occupation.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: apastuszak on
I think the only thing that would make FLAC an unpopular format is if a new lossless compression format comes out that offers significant space savings over FLAC.


I really doubt that.  FLAC already gets most of the easily accessible redundancy and a fair bit of the hard access kind.  Improving compression ratios by more than 3-4 percentage points would require very large increases in processing time.  This is likely to cap all new formats within a few percentage points of FLAC (like TAK) for years/decades to come.

If FLAC becomes less popular, it'll probably be because some technically very similar format was standardized in some way that caused it to become more widely used or compatible (e.g. Apple eventually starts selling some open DRM free lossless format other than flac at low price or some similar scenario).

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: MaxDread on
I am in the middle of ripping my beloved music collection.  The CDs are being sold


Can't be all that beloved if you're selling the collection.

FLAC may become obsolete one day, but you can be certain that you'll have ample warning (years in advance) and will easily be able to convert your entire FLAC library to another format when that time comes.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #20 –
Thanks for the many interesting and helpful responses! 

I am glad to hear that I am over worrying and being paranoid, and that I have nothing to worry about.  It was just one of those late at night "what-if" moments that popped into my head.

With regards legality, to me it seems about as illegal as driving 33mph on a 30mph road.  Yes, it is against the law.  But virtually everyone does it.  In the UK (where I am), it has only very recently become legal to rip a CD even if you owned and kept the CD.  From what I can see that has only changed in the last couple of months.  So I wonder how many people broke that law prior to October 2014!

Quote from: JJZolx on
Quote from: MaxDread on
I am in the middle of ripping my beloved music collection.  The CDs are being sold


Can't be all that beloved if you're selling the collection.


I said music collection, not CD collection.

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Soap on
Quote from: Beatswork on
No just reflecting on fact that I ripped many, many CD's in early days using LAME command line utility to low bit rate MP3. Sure I can still listen to them but they sound absolutely horrible against lossless FLAC.


Issue 1 here is the fault spending the time to rip to lossy, which means resources were devoted to a task which could be done better.  Ripping to FLAC (or any other lossless codec) doesn't suffer the same problem.

Quote from: Beatswork on
Now FLAC is lossless but you can bet on the fact that they will figure out a way to remaster old material in a completely new way which offers greater flexibility and sound quality. Think that's far fetched? Imagine a 1 gig file which encodes original master, remaster, demo version, true surround, information on room acoustics etc etc. Continuously increasing storage capacity, processing power, DAC design almost guarantee it IMHO.


Issue 2 here is completely different.  Might <insert favorite album here> come out in the future in a wonderfully superior format?  Sure it might.  While that's unlikely it doesn't change the fact that the FLAC rip of <insert favorite album here> will be just as perfect a copy and just as usable X years from now as it is today.  Arguing that a new superior album release might come out and therefore today's rip may one day be obsolete doesn't mean FLAC is obsolete, it means the album you own today is obsolete - an answer to a different (and unasked) question.



agreed on both counts - why the hell did you rip to mp3_128 in the first place? Obviously didn't do your research...even back then you could have stored at worst as a .wav file which would have been lossless (but shorten (.shn) goes back a while too)

...And the only way Led Zeppelin I is ever going to sound SO SO SO MUCH better than what the current technology allows us to hear today is when we invent time travel and someone/something goes back to 1969 and re-records the sound using better recording technolgy. Otherwise...your "flac"ed file from your compact disc or vinyl pressing is going to sound if not as good as it gets, then 99.8% as good as it gets giving that 0.2% for a better mixing of the original audio.

Also...today we can sample at 24bit 192KHz, hell, technically we can probably sample at a resolution 10 times that! However that is not going to improve the music...we (humans) can hear basically what a compact disc holds...not much more, if any regardless of what all these audiophiles seem to "think" they can hear. Certainly nowhere near what a 24bit 192KHz file can hold. The amount of information in that file literally holds orders of magnitude more sound than the human ear can detect...ANY HUMAN EAR! So, going any higher in "quality" or sampling is pointless for us humans. (btw, engineers, scientists and interest people have been looking for that "super human" with "super hearing" for a hundred years at least now, still haven't found a single person with it).

Now, if it really matters that much to you to make sure you have the most optimal audio so that dolphins (or an alien life form we haven't met yet) won't hear a difference between the digital file and the original then we can start talking again...although I think 24bit 192KHz is still plenty for that too!

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #22 –
[/quote]
agreed on both counts - why the hell did you rip to mp3_128 in the first place? Obviously didn't do your research...even back then you could have stored at worst as a .wav file which would have been lossless (but shorten (.shn) goes back a while too)
[/quote]

Look up the price per megabyte of hard drive storage in 1994 and calculate the per CD cost of storing in WAV.  Do YOUR research .....

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #23 –
It didn't become economically practical for me to store my ripped music (and video) in a lossless format until the mid to late 2000's. Capacity was just too expensive and OGG Vorbis sounded just fine. Once capacity became absurdly cheap I undertook the task of reripping my CD library again to FLAC (which will be the last time I have to rerip).

Could FLAC (in my case 1.2.1) ever become obsolete?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: yourlord on
It didn't become economically practical for me to store my ripped music (and video) in a lossless format until the mid to late 2000's. Capacity was just too expensive and OGG Vorbis sounded just fine. Once capacity became absurdly cheap I undertook the task of reripping my CD library again to FLAC (which will be the last time I have to rerip).


That I understand completely.